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《时代周刊》亚洲版采访李洪志(中英对照)

发布日期:2006年08月24日   文章来源:凯风网   作者:叹息 译
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  1999年5月10日,时代周刊发表了记者威廉.道维尔采访法轮功教主李洪志的报道。此前,李洪志并没有受到任何国内外媒体的重视,没有哪个严肃媒体会去关注一个自称杀过明朝蛇精的低劣骗子。法轮功聚众闹事的“425事件”之后,李洪志迅速进入西方媒体的视线,并一度成为瞩目的焦点。但是,令李洪志万万没有想到的是,他引人注目的后果就是更快地暴露自己是个骗子。《时代周刊》记者道维尔的采访就是一个很好的例子。从这篇采访报道中我们可以看出,李洪志这个“宇宙主佛”完全控制不了局面,狼狈地被记者牵着鼻子走。道维尔拿着李洪志的《转法轮》巧妙地设计问题,以子之矛攻子之盾,令心虚气短的骗子李洪志完全陷入慌乱之中。李洪志对自己吹过的牛皮撒过的谎无法否认,只有用离奇的鬼话尽力遮掩,最终自然产生了一种绝妙的喜剧效果。

  这篇文章发表之后,让很多不了解法轮功的人从根本上认清了这个号称“真善忍”组织的不真不善的荒唐面目。有人甚至将这篇采访誉为“在西方社会中最有力的反法轮功武器”。从李洪志本人事后气急败坏又无可奈何的表现上来看,这种说法并不过分:

  二零零零年十二月李洪志在安娜堡北美大湖区“法会”上仍然对此耿耿于怀,特地把道维尔归类于“有些不怀好意的记者”。

  我们翻出这篇七年前的旧文不只是揭一揭李洪志的伤疤,更重要的是分享这出有李洪志本人亲自参与演出的喜剧中的乐趣。这篇文章给了李洪志一个教训,此后他对媒体和记者产生了警惕,甚至稍后完全拒绝接受任何采访,我们也就无从看到李洪志的更多表演。

 

  1999年5月10日《时代周刊》亚洲版采访李洪志

 

  【美国《时代周刊》亚洲版1999年5月10日,作者:韦廉姆·道维尔William Dowell】4月26日,神秘的法轮功运动创始人李洪志的亲密随从张尔平打电话到纽约的时代周刊,他告知当时正发生在北京的一个重要事件。他说:“看上去到了很多人。”当我们问及有多少人的时候,他猜测可能有一万人。“但是人数还在增加。”他说,“他们正准备去政府机构。”事实证明张说的没错,至少一万名法轮功信徒聚集在中国政府所在地中南海前面要求政府认可并给予他们练法轮功的自由。这一次抗议活动表明了法轮功——据称有一亿信众,绝大多数在中国——是有严密组织的。但是张尔平声称这次抗议活动是自发的。

 

  此次抗议活动之前几周,时代周刊在曼哈顿(李洪志一年前离开中国之后定居于此)采访过李洪志——能说会道的四十七岁的法轮功创始人。李洪志相信气功(法轮功是其中的一个变种)中的古老中国技艺可以赋予练习者超人的能力。而且他说目前世界处于混乱状态是由于外星人的入侵人类种群而造成的,这些外星人妄图通过科学技术的手段,尤其是人体克隆,来挑战人类。尽管李洪志的想法看上去不着边际,他在全世界拥有众多拥戴者和信徒也是一件值得注意的事情。
 
  时代周刊的记者韦廉姆·道维尔采访了李洪志。李洪志说中文,张尔平充当翻译。
 
  下面是当时的采访记录:
 
  问:法轮功和其他气功有何不同?
 
  答:在中国和其他国家有很多不同的气功锻炼,但是它们主要是以祛病强身为目标。我所教的是更高层次的气功,它包括更多内涵。有些像西方人所熟知的道教。
 
  问:能够发出内力吗?
 
  答:你大概知道有些人具有超凡能力。这些超凡能力非常独特,都是在修炼的过程中产生的。我们要求练习者必须做到尽善尽美或者完成修炼,以便达到更高层次。在中国,我们将这种“目标”称为道。
 
  问:在你的《转法轮》一书中你谈到了有些人可以离地飞起来,但是你又说他们不可以显示给别人看。这是为什么?
 
  答:这与天堂中西方的神仙不能被常人所见一个道理,因为他们不会明白其中的道理。
 
  问:你见过人从地上飞起来吗?
 
  答:我知道的太多了。
 
  问:你能说说几个吗?
 
  答:大卫·科波菲尔。他就能飞,而且他表演的时候就飞过。
 
  问:你曾经说过你这种气功不可以用来治病。为什么?
 
  答:治病是属于低层次的气功。有病的人不可能修炼到高层次。他们必须先净化身体以便具有“功”。治病强身是在低层次修炼中打基础。
 
  问:为什么不呢?
 
  答:因为我仅仅是教给人们如何学习大法以及如何进行修炼。我只是把法理教给人类,我不做其他的事情。
 
  问:最终目的是什么呢?
 
  答:最终目的是使人们得道并且完成他们的修炼。最终,他们可以使自己脱离世间状态。我知道人类生命并不是从他们所认为的那个空间创造而来的。
 
  问:为何大师现在揭示的这种途径就是气功?
 
  答:人类有很多事情是以前所不知道的。我所能够告诉你的就是现在人类的道德水平已经不高了。在修炼的过程中,人们可以提升自我。很多人都可以完成修炼最终得道。也会有一些人无法完成修炼,但是最终会成为很好的人。
 
  问:你为什么到纽约来?
 
  答:在中国,政府是一个集权政府。由于修炼的人非常多,政府可能会感到有压力。
 
  问:在中国教功有困难吗?
 
  答:在中国目前有一亿人在修炼这个功。官方估计的数字是6000万人。我想教人们做好人,并不想参与政治。我告诉大家不要参与到政治事件里面去以确保他们有个不受干扰的环境以便好好练功。
 
  问:既然如此,中国政府为什么会担心?
 
  答:美国是个民主国家。你也许不明白在集权政府统治下的国家是什么样子。中国政府了解我教的是好的,了解我教人提升道德。他们只是担心修炼的人太多。
 
  问:你什么时候开始学气功的?
 
  答:从我四岁的时候起开始学的。我那时候太小,我的师父们教我一些简单的东西。
 
  问:你的师父们是谁?
 
  答:我不想公布他们的名字。我有两批师父。在文化大革命前,人们享有相当的宗教信仰自由。中国人很习惯这些事情。就像西方人去教堂一样。
 
  问:是什么最终让你决定出山?
 
  答:是师父们让我出山的。当时我说练气功的人太多了,而且我说我不想给人治病强身。他们说:“你所做的会与众不同。那些教人治病强身的气功师给你的出山铺平了道路。”
 
  问:你的师父在什么地方?
 
  答:山里。
 
  问:这个运动是如何发展的呢?
 
  答:在中国有很多人练气功,他们想练到高层次,但是却没有人教他们。他们想让我来教。有些人组织起来向政府申请许可。
 
  问:你什么时候决定要来美国?
 
  答:我是去年来的,此前一年就开始申请了。
 
  问:你感到在中国有危险吗?
 
  答:政府不明确表态,但是安全机构却认为修炼的人太多。当我们想开法会的时候,他们不批准,因为他们认为人太多了。
 
  问:法轮的轮是什么意思?
 
  答:是一个图案,表面上看就是一个标志。其内在的含义要好一些。
 
  问:那么,它是一种思想?
 
  答:在西方观念中,精神和肉体是分开的。在东方观念里,这些都是一些非常实际和具体的事情。
 
  问:你谈到过法轮在身体里运转。
 
  答:我可以用我的意志来指挥事情的发生。
 
  问:修炼是依靠精神还是肉体锻炼?
 
  答:两者都需要。
 
  问:一个人得道之后又如何?
 
  答:我们都听说过中国的神仙。当你完成修炼之后,就具有了特殊的能力。
 
  问:气功可以抵御死亡来临吗?
 
  答:在西方观念里,人可以通过修炼在死后到达天堂。在东方观念里,人可以通过修炼在活着的时候就达到一种圣洁状态。
 
  问:请你谈谈佛教的末法时期。
 
  答:释迦牟尼佛讲法的时候还没有文字,因此佛教只能通过口头传述。500年后,人们的论述中已经改变了释迦牟尼佛的原话,这时候它就走到了尽头。末法时期的意思是修炼方法变得混乱而且不能够指导人们进行修炼了。
 
  问:为什么当前是乱世?
 
  答:当然原因不止一个。当今社会变坏的最大的原因就是因为人们不再相信正教。他们去教堂,但是不再相信上帝。他们任意去作任何事情。第二个原因就是自本世纪初,外星人开始入侵人类思想及其意识形态和文化。
 
  问:他们是从哪里来的?
 
  答:这些外星人来自其他星球。我对这些星球所用的名称不同。有一些来自人类未曾发现的空间。关键问题是他们如何使人类堕落。大家都知道,从始至终,人类文化从来没有过今天这般发展进步。尽管已经发展了几千年,但是从来没有像当今这样。
 
  外星人传入了现代机械,像计算机和飞机。他们开始教人类学习现代科学,因此人们越来越相信科学,从而被精神控制了。大家都相信科学家是靠自己发明东西,但实际上他们的灵感是被外星人操纵的。从文化和精神的角度上来看,他们已经控制了人类。人类生存已经离不开科学。
 
  他们的最终目的是代替人类。如果克隆人成功的话,外星人可以正式代替人类。为什么一具尸体尽管与活着的躯体完全一样,但却是死的?两者的差别就是灵魂,这是身体的生命。如果人们复制了一个躯体,天堂里的神是不会给他一个灵魂的。外星人将利用这个机会代替人的灵魂,而且他们由此进入地球成为地球人。
 
  当这些人长大之后,他们将帮助外星人代替人类。他们会复制更多的克隆人。那时将不会是人类来繁殖人类了。他们表面上像人一样,但是他们会立法来阻止人类的繁殖。
 
  问:你是人类吗?
 
  答:你可以把我想成人类。
 
  问:你来自地球吗?
 
  答:我不想在高层次上谈我自己。人们理解不了。
 
  问;控制人类之后外星人又会如何呢?
 
  答:外星人用许多方法使人们感觉不到自己被操纵控制了。他们使地球人互相冲突并打仗,用科学的方法制造武器,这样可以使人类更加依赖先进的科学技术。通过这些,外星人可以引入他们的东西并为代替人类做准备。军事工业领导其他诸如计算机和电子产业。
 
  问:但是,外星人的目的是什么呢?
 
  答:人类身体是宇宙中最完美的。那是一种最完美的形式。外星人想要人类的身体。
 
  问:外星人看起来什么样?
 
  答:有些看起来和人类差不多。美国科技已经发现了一些外星人。外星人之间的差异可以非常巨大。
 
  问:你能描述一下吗?
 
  答:别有这种想法。
 
  问:还是描述一下吧
 
  答:一种看上去就像是人类,但是有一个骨质的鼻子。其他的看上去像鬼。一开始他们认为我想帮助他们。现在他们知道了我是想清理他们。
 
  问:你怎么看待未来?
 
  答:未来的人类社会将会非常可怕。如果外星人不代替人类,社会将自己崩溃。工业产生了无形的空气污染。空气中的微粒损害人类健康。当前的气候异常就是由此(污染)而起,而且仅靠人类自己无法改善。饮水也被污染了。无论我们如何净化,也不可能恢复到原有的纯度。现代科学无法测定这些损害的程度。我们所吃的食物是化肥土壤的产物。我们吃的肉被污染了。我可以预见到未来,人类的肢体变形、身体的关节不能够活动并且内部器官功能失调。现代科学还没有意识到这一点。
 
  一开始你问我为什么要那么做。我只告诉修炼者而不是公众,因为他们无法领会。我正在努力拯救那些可以返本归真的人。现代科学不理解这些,因此政府什么也做不了。整个世界上知道这一切的只有我自己。
 
  我不反对公众了解,但是我只是教给修炼者。即便是公众都知道了,也于事无补。人们无法从科学和观念中解脱出来。我也不反对科学,我只是告诉人类这个事实。我开车,我也生活在这个环境里。不要认为我是反科学的。但是我知道现代科学是在毁灭人类。计算机的发展命令体细胞的这一层去控制人类文化和灵性并且最终替换人类。(叹息 译)
 

Interview with Li Hongzhi


Time Asia/May 10, 1999

On April 26, Erping Zhang, a close associate of Li Hongzhi, the mysterious leader of the Falun Gong religious movement, called TIME in New York to say that major events were transpiring in Beijing. "It looks as though quite a few people have shown up," he said. When we asked how many, he guessed that it might be 10,000. "But this is getting bigger," he said. "They are planning to go to the government offices." As it turned out, Zhang was correct. At least 10,000 Falun Gong members gathered in front of Zhongnanhai, the seat of China's government, to demand recognition from authorities and freedom to practice their beliefs. The demonstration appeared to indicate that Falun Gong--which may have as many as 100 million adherents worldwide, mainly in China--is tightly organized. But Zhang insists that the protest was "spontaneous."

A few weeks before the demonstration, TIME interviewed Li Hongzhi, the soft-spoken 47-year-old creator of Falun Gong, in Manhattan where he settled after leaving China a year ago. Li believes the ancient Chinese art of qigong (Falun Gong is one variation) can endow practitioners with superhuman powers. He also says the world is in chaos today because the human race has been invaded by aliens from other planets who hope to challenge mankind through scientific means, especially through human cloning. If Li's ideas seem far fetched, it is worth noting that he has fans and followers worldwide. On Oct. 11, 1996, Houston mayor Robert C. Lanier proclaimed the date to be Li Hongzhi Day. Li was interviewed in New York by TIME correspondent William Dowell. He spoke in Chinese and Zhang acted as interpreter.

Here is the interview:

TIME: How does Falun Gong differ from other types of qigong?


Li: There are different practices of qigong in China and in other countries, but they are primarily aimed at healing illnesses or keeping fit and maintaining good health. I am teaching a higher level of qigong. It encompasses a greater content. It is like the Tao, which is known in the Western world.

 

TIME: And this expresses an inner energy?


Li: You probably know that some people have supernormal capabilities. They are unique capabilities that are created during the course of the cultivation practice. In order to reach a higher level, we require people to reach the perfection or completion of cultivation. In Chinese we call this attaining the Tao.

 

TIME: In your book [Zhuan Falun] you talk about people levitating off the ground but you say that they should not show other people. Why is that?


Li: It is the same principle that Western gods in paradise should not be seen by ordinary mortals because they cannot nderstand its meaning.

 

TIME: Have you seen human beings levitate off the ground?


Li: I have known too many.

 

TIME: Can you describe any that you have known?


Li: David Copperfield. He can levitate and he did it during performances.

 

TIME: You have said that this type of qigong should not be used to cure illness. Why is that?


Li: Healing illnesses belongs to the lower level of qigong. A person with an illness cannot practice to a higher level. One has to purify one's body in order to have gong. Healing and fitness are for laying a foundation at a lower level of practice.

 

TIME: Would you use qigong to cure an illness?


Li: I can do all of this, but I won't do it.

 

TIME: Why not?


Li: Because I only teach people how to learn this dafa [great law] and to practice cultivation. I only teach the principles of fa to mankind. I won't do anything else.

 

TIME: What is the final goal?


Li: The ultimate purpose is to enable people to attain the Tao and to complete their cultivation practice. In the end they can free themselves from the worldly state. I know that human lives are not created from the dimension that human beings think they know.

 

Time: Why does the master reveal this path to the qigong now?


Li: Mankind has many things that it never knew before. What I can tell you is that human moral values are no longer good. In the course of the cultivation practice, one can upgrade oneself. Many people will be able to complete their cultivation and attain the Tao. There will be some who will not be able to complete cultivation but will become very good people.

 

Time: Why did you come to New York?


Li: In China, the government is a centralized government. Because the number of our practitioners is large, the government may feel pressure.

 

Time: It is difficult to teach in China?


Li: In China, there are more than 100 million who practice this. The official estimate of the number of practitioners is 60 million. I want to teach people to be good and not to be involved in politics. I told people not to get involved in political events to make sure that they have a very good practice in their environment without interference.

 

Time: So why is the Chinese government concerned?


Li: America is a country with democracy. You probably don't understand what it is like in a country that has a centralized government. The Chinese government knows that what I am teaching is good and that I am teaching people to have high moral values. They are only concerned because there are so many people practicing cultivation.

 

Time: When did you learn about qigong?


Li: I started to learn when I was four years old. I was very young, and my teachers taught me aspects that were very simple.

 

Time: Who were your teachers?


Li: I do not wish to have their names known. I had masters in two schools. Prior to the Cultural Revolution people enjoyed quite a bit of religious freedom. Chinese were quite used to such things. It was like going to church in the West.

 

Time: When did you start teaching?


Li: I am more than 40 years old, and I have been practicing qigong for many years. When qigong became popular, I did not come out in the public. I did not want to teach about stopping illnesses or keeping fit.

 

Time: What made you finally come out?


Li: When these masters asked me to come out. At the time I said that there were too many people practicing qigong, and I said that I did not want to cure illnesses or to help people keep fit. They said, "What you do will be different. These people who are teaching how to cure illnesses and teaching fitness, are paving the road for your coming out."

 

Time: Where were these masters?


Li: They were in the mountains.

 

Time: How did the movement spread?


Li: Many people practice qigong in China. They all want to practice it to the higher levels, but no one was teaching them. They all wanted me to teach them. Some people organized the events and applied to the government for pproval.

 

Time: When did you decide to come to America?


Li: I came here last year, and I started the application the year before that.

 

Time: Did you feel you were in danger in China?


Li: The government did not express a clear position, but the security ministries felt that there were too many people practicing. When we tried to hold meetings, they did not approve them because they felt there were too many people.

 

Time: What is the wheel that is Falun?


Li: It is a pattern, or a symbol on the surface. What it is inside is much better.

 

Time: So it is an idea?


Li: In the West, the spirit is separate from the body. In the East these are things that are very real and concrete.

 

Time: You talk about placing the wheel into the body.


Li: I can use my mind to direct and order things to happen.

 

Time: Is cultivation achieved through mental effort or physical exercise.


Li: Both are needed.

 

Time: What happens after one attains the Tao?


Li: We have all heard about the Chinese deities. When one completes cultivation, one has special powers.

 

Time: Can qigong prevent death?


Li: In the West, one can reach paradise through cultivation practice after death. In the East, one can achieve a divine status through cultivation practice while one is still alive.

 

Time: You talk about the period of the end of Dharma.


Li: While Buddha Sakyamuni [563-483 B.C.] was teaching his Dharma, there was no written language so the Dharma was passed by word of mouth. After 500 years, human discourse changed Buddha Sakyamuni's original words and it came to an end. The ending of the Dharma means that the cultivation method began to become chaotic and could no longer enable people to practice cultivation.

 

Time: Why does chaos reign now?


Li: Of course there is not just one reason. The biggest cause of society's change today is that people no longer believe in orthodox religion. They go to church, but they no longer believe in God. They feel free to do anything. The second reason is that since the beginning of this century, aliens have begun to invade the human mind and its ideology and culture.

 

Time: Where do they come from?


Li: The aliens come from other planets. The names that I use for these planets are different . Some are from dimensions that human beings have not yet discovered. The key is how they have corrupted mankind. Everyone knows that from the beginning until now, there has never been a development of culture like today. Although it has been several thousand years, it has never been like now. The aliens have introduced modern machinery like computers and airplanes. They started by teaching mankind about modern science, so people believe more and more science, and spiritually, they are controlled. Everyone thinks that scientists invent on their own when in fact their inspiration is manipulated by the aliens. In terms of culture and spirit, they already control man. Mankind cannot live without science. The ultimate purpose is to replace humans. If cloning human beings succeeds, the aliens can officially replace humans. Why does a corpse lie dead, even though it is the same as a living body? The difference is the soul, which is the life of the body. If people reproduce a human person, the gods in heaven will not give its body a human soul. The aliens will take that opportunity to replace the human soul and by doing so they will enter earth and become earthlings. When such people grow up, they will help replace humans with aliens. They will produce more and more clones. There will no longer be humans reproduced by humans. They will act like humans, but they will introduce legislation to stop human reproduction.

 

Time: Are you a human being?


Li: You can think of me as a human being.

 

Time: Are you from earth?


Li: I don't wish to talk about myself at a higher level. People wouldn't understand it.

 

Time: What are the aliens after?


Li: The aliens use many methods to keep people from freeing themselves from manipulation. They make earthlings have wars and conflicts, and develop weapons using science, which makes mankind more dependent on advanced science and technology. In this way, the aliens will be able to introduce their stuff and make the preparations for replacing human beings. The military industry leads other industries such as computers and electronics.

 

Time: But what is the alien purpose?


Li: The human body is the most perfect in the universe. It is the most perfect form. The aliens want the human body.

 

Time: What do aliens look like?


Li: Some look similar to human beings. U.S. technology has already detected some aliens. The difference between aliens can be quite enormous.

 

Time: Can you describe it?


Li: You don't want to have that kind of thought in your mind.

 

Time: Describe them anyway.


Li: One type looks like a human, but has a nose that is made of bone. Others look like ghosts. At first they thought that I was trying to help them. Now they now that I am sweeping them away.

 

Time: How do you see the future?


Li: Future human society is quite terrifying. If aliens are not to replace human beings, society will destroy itself on its own. Industry is creating invisible air pollution. The microparticles in the air harm human beings. The abnormality in the climate today is caused by that [pollution], and it cannot be remedied by humans alone. The drinking water is polluted. No matter how we try to purify it, it cannot return to its original purity. Modern science cannot determine the extent of the damage. The food we eat is the product of fertilized soil. The meat we eat is affected. I can foresee a future when human limbs become deformed, the body's joints won't move and internal organs will become dysfunctional. Modern science hasn't realized this yet. At the beginning you asked why I did such things. I only tell practitioners, but not the public because they cannot comprehend it. I am trying to save those people who can return to a high level and to a high moral level. Modern science does not understand this, so governments can do nothing. The only person in the entire world who knows this is myself alone. I am not against the public knowing, but I am teaching practitioners. Even though the public knows, it cannot do anything about it. People can't free themselves from science and from their concepts. I am not against science. I am only telling mankind the truth. I drive a car. I also live in the environment. Don't believe that I am against science. But I know that modern science is destroying mankind. Aliens have already constructed a layer of cells in human beings. The development of computers dictates this layer of body cells to control human culture and spirituality and in the end to replace human beings. 

 

 



点击访问《时代周刊》网页:http://www.time.com/time/asia/asia/magazine/1999/990510/interview1.html

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