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纪烈武:法轮功让我丧失独立思考能力(中英对照)

采访纪烈武系列报道之一

发布日期:2006年10月10日   文章来源:凯风网   作者:谈德音
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  7年前,还是36岁的时候,他已是(香港)中国有色金属工业贸易集团、东方铜业有限公司董事、总经理;驻香港已达10年。
  7年后,仍在监狱的他依然自豪地说,“当时,我在(贸易投资、期货等)领域里面做得相当不错。”那时的他,在国际、国内同行中均获得较高的认可和尊重。
  然而,法轮功使他逐渐丧失理性。1999年,他因犯组织利用邪教组织破坏法律实施、组织利用邪教组织致人死亡、非法获取国家秘密罪,被判处有期徒刑12年,剥夺政治权利2年。


  纪烈武最初接触法轮功是因为身体不好。他也知道这是工作累的,但他并没有对症下药。2006年9月,纪烈武将他与法轮功、李洪志的事从头说起。

  “到了90年初的时候,因为当时工作太繁重,那时一个人可能相当于十几个人的工作量,24小时基本上连轴转。”纪烈武说,“长期以后身体就不好,都是慢性病,积劳成疾。慢性病调理起来就比较慢,不像下几副药就好了。所以东寻西找的,包括中医的医生啊,包括一些道士啊、和尚啊,都接触,接触比较多、比较杂。”

  就这样,一心想健身的纪烈武慢慢接触到了气功。“法轮功基本上包括了当时比较风行的气功啊、特异功能啊,包括佛教、道教一些宗教内容。它基本上都涉及了,都揉进去了。(李洪志)比别的气功师讲的要稍微全一些,内容讲的要细一些,浅白一些,接触起来当时好像要容易一些。”纪烈武说,“不像佛教、道教。也练过那些东西,效果也比较不错。但是这个经典的东西太浩瀚。(我)工作也比较繁忙,也没有那么多的精力,所以觉着障碍比较大一点。但也接触了很多。和法轮功相比,法轮功就相对比较容易一些,比较方便一些。”

  1994年下半年,纪烈武开始练起法轮功。

  1995年底,与纪烈武早就相识的法轮功骨干、李洪志亲信叶浩,主动与纪烈武联系。“说李洪志要去香港,让我接待一下。”纪烈武说,“因为我当时在(香港)那工作,条件也比较方便,安排一下来往也没什么,就这样认识了、接触了。”

  此后,李洪志的出国事宜就由纪烈武打点了。“当时(李洪志)他的母亲还有妹妹在泰国,去泰国要经过香港。”纪烈武说,“经过香港时就住在我家。有时我给他买买机票,安排一下行程。”“(李洪志)他也在香港见了一些朋友。”从1995年李洪志在纪烈武的接待下第一次去香港,到1997年李洪志定居美国期间,纪烈武不仅负责李洪志的“来来往往,接待,还陪他去过一些地方,像澳大利亚、新加坡、美国”等地。此外,纪烈武还帮李洪志在香港成立了法轮功的出版社。很快,纪烈武也同样成了法轮功的骨干、李洪志的亲信。

  纪烈武如此积极,是他以为法轮功“对人有好处”。“比如(李洪志)他当时不仅仅讲治病,还讲修身啊,讲真善忍啊。按照真善忍去做应该是个好人啊。把世间的名利看淡一点呀,不争不夺呀,做人也是一种修养。所以从这个角度对人民对社会应该有好处。”纪烈武说,“所以当时处于这种愿望,觉得做得对人有好处的事情,该做一点就做一点,也比较积极地去做去。所以当时也比较积极。”

  “再一个的话,《转法轮》当时的主导思想还是修心,讲真善忍这么一个体系。但是这个体系里它阐述了很多的现象或解释,它和过去的宗教的提法也大体上有相似的地方,好多术语也是宗教里的术语,解释的现象也是当时气功界比较热门的现象,所以就觉得(李洪志)他在这个领域里面好像是能够知道很多东西,通过和他接触了解一些情况,或者长一些见识呀,或者对人生呀对生命科学呀有一些更深的了解。”纪烈武说,当时他就是怀着这样一种想法跟李洪志接触的。“接触的时候因为(李洪志)他本人讲他对世间的东西不感兴趣。所以呢,我跟他接触的时候也很少问他你在世间的情况怎样,他也不讲。他个人的经历呀或者家庭的情况呀从来不讲。顶多讲一些个气功方面的情况或者在练功中遇到的一些问题呀、一些心理感受或者生理体验呀方方面面的情况。他主要是讲这方面的比较多,当时主要是从这么一个角度和他接触的。其他方面没有说我看看(李洪志)你这个人有没有什么缺点呀或者可疑之处呀,没有从这个角度去挖这个人的。当时就是你说了我就信,反正基本就是这么一个情况。”

  事实上,纪烈武最初对李洪志所谓的在修炼者肚子里装一个法轮,什么正转反转之类的并不信。“一开始肯定是不信的。”纪烈武说,“他说了以后,我当时记得第一次听他办班的时候我能接受的大概有30%,70%的我有不同的看法。因为毕竟是一个学工科的,对无神论有比较深刻的了解。过去接触宗教也是从一个无神论的角度去接受哲理或者思想,并没有从真正的有神论的角度来理解。”

  “后来的话,(跟)一些个学员接触的时候,一些个学员声称自己开天目呀,看到这个情况,自己练功的时候再遇到一些情况呀,慢慢慢慢就去不断地探索验证这个东西是到底怎么回事,就慢慢慢慢地越来越投入比较多了。”纪烈武说,“(我就)从一开始怀疑到最后陷进去了。”

  纪烈武很积极,还因为李洪志“强调不参与政治,回避政治”。“这个观点,包括他的经文里面提到不止一次。都说过这个问题。所以我对这个提法印象比较深。”纪烈武说,“一般的人,可能参与任何一个集体活动时都不愿意跟政治挂边,……因为这是一个个人修为的事情,和政治本身也没有什么瓜葛。如果你用政治形式呢它可能就是一个非法的行为。所以对这种东西呢,当时我个人的认识里面还是比较比较敏感的,你要是参与政治我肯定离你远远的,你不参与政治我觉得还是一个正当的……”

  纪烈武认为,“4.25”时,正是在这种以为自己“远离政治”、“在做好事”的思想意识的灌输下,他直接参与策划、指挥了“4.25”法轮功人员围攻中南海事件。“当时没有认识到(它的政治性)。但后来的话它肯定是一个有政治影响的行为。”纪烈武说。

  据统计,在李洪志的煽动下,李洪志及李昌、王治文、纪烈武、姚洁等人,组织、利用法轮功邪教组织先后在北京、天津等地,组织、策划、指挥每次300人以上的法轮功练习者非法聚集围攻国家机关、事业单位达78起。“我想大部分人没有从政治角度思考。”纪烈武说。

  “很多练功的人,当时练了有那么一两年或两三年的,时间比较长以后呢投入比较深。一旦出现(有关法轮功负面报道的)这种情况,他可能觉得媒体的话呢和他的想法不一样,不合他们的想法,包括李洪志本身,就让大家去说。”纪烈武说,“当时李洪志可能对政治的理解,我觉得他可能从意识形态上有他自己的看法。他讲的东西和当时社会上主导思想、意识形态有冲突,和政治上不是完全上相一致的。但是练功的人没有从这个角度去考虑。(他们)主要是练功,对他身体有好处,出现什么情况我该去怎么说怎么说,更没有从社会的政治的角度去看看说4.25或围攻北京电视台是怎么回事。如果说它是一个政治行为的话,或者对这些东西的后果有一个基本的判断的话,我想有很多事情也不会发生,有很多人也可能就不会去。”

  “后来的话社会上媒体出现(被法轮功人员围攻)的事情比较多的时候,可能陷进去的意识应该有,麻痹这种意识有,没有太清醒地去判断这些事情,思考思考是怎么回事。”纪烈武说。

  “从一个正常的思维,冷静下来思考我肯定不会参与(围攻等事情)。在当时的情况下,由于事情发生了以后,再加上李洪志通过经文一遍遍地表达,再加上大家都很气愤,大家很都热衷这种事情,人在那种环境中会丧失一种独立思考的氛围或者独立思考的能力。”纪烈武说。

  “但是即便是这样,当时我觉得从我一路过来,我还是自己把握住自己不是很积极。”纪烈武说,“虽然在做,但一边做,一边咱是不是有理呀,咱得思考,也没时间去思考。当时,大家一个形势跟着一块做就完了……” 

  谈德音:跟你谈了这么多,给我的感觉你就是被骗了被利用了,我就是这么感觉的,我不知道我说的你认同不认同。……
  纪烈武:应该是这样,应该是这样,应该是这样。对!因为起码我们不可能去做一些危害社会危害国家的事情,这不可能是我们的一个想法。当时主要是想健身呢、修心呢,这不可能是我们的一个初衷。
  谈德音:如果这样的话,那你以后对法轮功还会……?
  纪烈武:不可能的事情,不可能参与这些事情,……绝对不可能。
  纪烈武:将来有机会再给国家做贡献就是将来的事情了。今天只能面对现实今天的事情。

 Ji Liewu: Falun Gong made me lose my mind

Seven years ago when at the age of 36, he had been the director and general manager of the China Nonferrous Metal Industry and Trade Group (Hong Kong) and the East Copper Limited Company. He had been stationed in Hong Kong for 10 years.

Seven years later, still in the prison, he spoke with pride as before, "In those days, I had done a good job in my field (trade investment and futures, etc.)." At that time, he was highly recognized and respected by his counterparts at home and abroad.

However, Falun Gong gradually made him lose his mind. In 1999, he was sentenced to twelve years in prison and deprived of political rights for two years for using cult organization to undermine the implementation of law, causing death by organizing evil denomination, and illegally obtaining state secrets.

Ji Liewu firstly practicing Falun Gong was because of his bad health. He knew that it was caused by his busy work, but he did not take proper steps. In Sep.2006, Ji Liewu talked about Falun Gong and Li Hongzhi from the very beginning.

"Early in the 1990th, because the work was too busy-what I did was more than what ten people did, and I worked for almost 24 hours a day," Ji said, "my health was in bad condition and I got many chronic illnesses from constant overwork, which were not easy to be cured. I went to see doctors here and there, including the herbalist, the Taoist priest, Buddhist and so on."

Thus, Ji Liewu, who had planned to keep fit, gradually engaged himself in Qigong. "Falun Gong, including Qigong and the supernatural ability which were quite popular at that time, and even some content of the Buddhism and Taoism, was more detailed and easier to read and understand." Ji said, "It was not like the Buddhism and Taoism which were well-effected but too general. I was quite busy and did not have so much energy. Compared with Falun Gong, the Buddhism and Taoism were more difficult."

In the second half of the year, Ji Liewu began to practice Falun Gong.

In the late 1995, Ye Hao, who was acquainted with Ji Liewu and also the cadre of Falun Gong and the confidant of Li Hongzhi, took the initiative to contact with Ji. "He said Li Hongzhi wanted to go to Hong Kong and hoped I could receive him." Ji said, "As I was in Hong Kong at that time, it was convenient to receive Li Hongzhi. Thus, I got acquaintance with him."

After that, Ji Liewu took charge of the matters when Li Hongzhi wanted to go abroad. "At that time, Li Hongzhi's mother and sister were in Thailand. He should pass through Hong Kong when going to Thailand." Ji said, "He stayed in my home when at Hong Kong. Sometimes I bought air tickets for him and arranged his journey. He also visited some friends in Hong Kong."For the first time Li Hongzhi went to Hong Kong in 1995, up to settling down in the US in 1997, Ji Liewu took all in charge. Ji made  "journey arrangement and reception" for Li Hongzhi, and also accompanied him to many places, such as Australia, Singapore, the US and so on. Furthermore, Ji Liewu also helped Li Hongzhi establish the Press of Falun Gong in Hong Kong. Ji became the cadre of Falun Gong and the confidant of Li Hongzhi soon.

Ji Liewu was so active because he believed that Falun Gong was "good to people". "Li not only preached that Falun Gong could cure illness, he also preached cultivation of morality and 'Truthfulness, Benevolence and Forbearance'. He claimed that if you lived according to 'Truthfulness, Benevolence and Forbearance', you would be a good man. You should be indifferent to fame and gain and not scramble for power. You should be a man of culture. So, from this point, I thought Falun Gong was good to the people and society." Ji said, "Based on the view that Falun Gong was good, I did for it the more the better if I could. And I do did quite actively."

"Furthermore, Falun Gong's main ideas was to cultivate the mind and preach the system of 'Truthfulness, Benevolence and Forbearance'. But many phenomenons or explanations this system expounded were similar to what mentioned in religion. So I thought Li Hongzhi could know much in this field and I could learn knowledge and experience from him, or gain deeper understanding about life and science through contacting with him." Ji Liewu said that with this kind of idea, he contact with Li Hongzhi. "Li Hongzhi said he was not interested in what happened in the human world, so I seldom asked his things in the world, and he never talked about his experience and family neither. He talked more about Qigong and some problems, mental feelings or experiences during practicing Falun Gong. I contacted with him mostly because of this. At that time, I did not try to find his shortcomings or to be suspicious of him. I did not see him from that point of view. At that time, I believed all that he said. That was the situation on the whole."

In fact, Ji Liewu did not believe the so called Falun in the stomach of the disciple at first. "I surely did not believe in the beginning." Ji said, "I remembered that when listening to his class for the first time, I could just accept thirty percent and had different views about the other 70 percent. After all, I had learnt engineering courses and had a clear understanding of antitheism. I accepted the philosophy or the ideas from the point of view of antitheism when contacting with the religions in the past. I never tried to understand the ideas from the point of view of theism."

"Later, when I contacted with a disciple, he claimed that he opened his third eye. After that, when I came across problems when practicing Falun Gong, I gradually began to explore and validate what the matter was. And then, I gradually devoted more." Ji said, "Thus, while suspicious at first, I got trapped at last."

Li Hongzhi's viewpoint of  not engaging in politics and avoiding politics made Jiliewu more active on Falun Gong affairs. "The viewpoint had been mentioned more than once in his lection, so that I was deeply impressed by the saying." Jiliewu said, "Common people would never take part in a collective assembly, which had something to do with politics. This was personnel exercising process, and it had nothing to do with political affairs. At that time, I was comparatively aware of the consciousness. If Li engaged in political affairs, I would be far away from him. However, I thought that he did right without engaging with policeal affairs."

Ji Liewu believed that his thought of "being far away from political affairs" and "doing the right thing" resulted in participating and plotting the 4.25 affair. Ji said, "I did not realize its political nature in advance. Later, I was sure that it was an action with political weight."

According to the statistics,  taking advantage of  Falun Gong organization, Li Chang, Wang Zhiwen, Ji Liewu and Yao Jie, with the instigation of  Li Hongzhi, had organized, plotted and commanded the group to besiege state organs and public institutions for 78 times with more than 300 Falun Gong practitioners every time in Beijing and Tianjin and other places. "Most of them did not think it over from political aspect." Ji said,"many practitioners, including those who had practiced for several years and were addicted to practicing Falun Gong, cannot accept the negative comment of media on Falun Gong if the media's comment was different from what they thought and did not cater to their taste. Usually, Li Hongzhi let everybody discuss it." Ji said, "Li Hongzhi's understanding on politics was different from the dominating thinkings and ideologies of the society. He had his own thought in ideological aspect. However, the practitioners did not take the polical factors into account. Their purpose was to exercise and have a healthy body. They did not unscramble the 4.25 inciden and incident of besieging Beijing TV station. I think many people would not take part in that, if they had a basic judgment from political and social aspect."

Ji said: "When the media's report of similar incidents occurd more often, the pratitioners were paralyzed by the abnormal thought and made wrong decision."

"If I had a normal thought and calmed down, I would not join in the besiegement. At then, Li Hongzhi expressed his lection again and again and everbody were angry about that, so everybody was addicted to that thing. People lost their ability of independent thinking under that circumstance." Ji said.

"But even though, I recollected myself, and I thought I did not have a good control of myself." Ji said, "though we did the besiegement, I thought if we had reason to do that and I lacked of time to think about it. At that time, everybody had sequacious mind..."

Tan Deyin: Talking so much with you, I feel that you are made use of by the swindlers. It is my feeling. I do not know if you agree with me.

Ji Liewu: It should be right. It should be right. It should be right. It is right! Because at least it is impossible for us to do things harmful to the society or the country. It's not our thoughts. It's not our original intention. What we wanted was just keeping fit and self-cultivation.

Tan Deyin: If so, what would you do with Falun Gong in future?

Ji Liewu: It is impossible. I will absolutely never take part in these matters... Never. It is a prospect to contribute to the country in the future if possible. Now, I can just face things at present.

(Kaiwind, October 10, 2006)

(责任编辑:)

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