原法轮功组织核心骨干于长新谈李洪志和法轮功（中英对照）-凯风网

　　于长新曾经是法轮功核心骨干成员，直接参与过法轮功许多重大活动的组织策划，并和李洪志本人过从甚密。一份2001年2月5日对于长新的访谈录，披露了许多真实具体的情节细节和鲜为人知的内情内幕。这位具有特殊身份和经历的当事人现身说法，“口述历史”，对我们认识和研究法轮功有着重要的参考价值。

——编者

　　问：近几天，报纸和电视对少数“法轮功”痴迷者在天安门(广场)自焚的事件作了报道。你看了没有?

　　于：我都收看了。

　　问：你看完了以后有什么感受啊?

　　于：我感到这些人当时现场那个情景惨不忍睹，我看到他们走到这个绝路上去，我自己更感到我的罪恶深重，对他们受害者和他们家属，我也很对不起他们。

　　我是“法轮大法研究会”的一个骨干成员，在1992年的10月以后，我在李洪志授意和指使下，先后给他出《转法轮》等一共16种图书，还有两种修炼故事和“法轮功”的一些资料，此外还有参与制作了4套音像制品。这些东西都是神化李洪志和“法轮功”的歪理邪说。其实李洪志在北京地区办了13个班，长春办了9个班，也就是说在全国53个班当中大部分是在这个地区，其他地方很少。我想了一下，每一个班平均有二、三千人的话，那全国也就是二十万人的样子。可是全国练“法轮功”的人有几百万。那就是说李洪志去过的地方也就是那么十五、六个省市区的样子，可是几乎每个省都有“法轮功”组织，这些人都是通过读李洪志的书和我整的那两本故事和资料汇编，再就是通过音像、录像带，学练“法轮功”的。就是包括这次天安门(广场)自焚的这几个人和其他的许多人，都是通过看书、看录像去练“法轮功”的。所以，“法轮功”的书籍流传这么广、流毒这么深，我是起了很坏的影响作用。也就是说，我是起到了李洪志起不到的作用。因此我感到我的罪恶是很深重的。所以我看到他们控诉李洪志的时候，我是很难过的。我后悔透了!

　　没有练这个功之前，我跟我老伴生活得还算是挺好的，虽说身体有病，也是过得去的，组织上经常也是很照顾的。通过“4·25”以后，我就一下子由一个过着幸福生活的人一个跟头就摔到监狱里来了，这是我一生中永远忘不了的，后悔都是来不及的，没法弥补的。无论是给人民的生命财产，还是给我们党，给国家，造成的损失，那是相当大的，有的是没法补救的。死了的那些人都是很惨的，我看到电视里面这些人，我想他还不一定都是听过班的，也都是我造成的罪过。组织上、法院判处我15年(口误，实为17年)徒刑，实际上是21年徒刑，叫我执行17年，再剥夺政治权利5年。对我这个惩罚，我曾经表示过，我的罪恶是深重的，怎么样对我惩罚，我都是完全接受，所以对我判刑，我表示不上诉，我都认罪服法，认真改造自己。如果是能在残生之年，怎么样能够补救补救?!

　　经过这一年多的改造吧，我彻底认识到了李洪志的真实面目和“法轮功”的反动本质，因此我就是，和李洪志这个政治骗子一刀两断，跟这祸国殃民的“法轮助”彻底决裂。所以我通过我亲身的经历，我要勇敢地站出来，把李洪志、“法轮功”的本来面目、反动本质彻底揭露出来，让它大白于天下。让人人都知道李洪志这个政治骗子的本质和“法轮功”的反动本质。

　　问：你作为“法轮大法研究会”的骨干成员，与李洪志接触得比较多一些，了解得应该说也比较深一些，你觉得李洪志是个什么样的人?

　　于：单独接触就有20多次，谈过话的。我感觉这个人，一直到现在来看，他是一个伪君子，一个政治骗子，一个有政治野心的人。

　　问：你说李洪志是一个伪君子，能不能说得具体一些?

　　于：我感到李洪志是很虚伪的人。表面上一接触，一看，好象是个正人君子，像个人。其实你要深一步看，像另外一个人。按我们老家的话说，这个人就是“两面人”，从现在就是说，当面是人，背后是鬼。他其实也是说一套做一套。具体一点，就是特别表现在，他在捞钱这方—面。他也是多次讲过，他起草那个《辅导站规定》里头，也明文写过，练功人不能够动钱、动物。可是他自己呢，在这方面就是有钱就捞。我直接体会到一些，就是出书。开始出的那个，广州出的一本书，《在美国讲法》，跟出版社商定的就是，定价5块钱。李洪志知道以后，可能是有两、三次，说那本书定价太低了，以后再出书，价格要提高一点。他口头上说，出版社有钱可赚，那另一方面，他也可以多赚钱。所以就是说，那本书《在美国讲法》第二次印刷的时候，他就告诉他身边的人，通知出版社，把那价格定到8元，后来我看到那本书，就是8块钱一本了。他兼的那个“香港法轮佛法出版社”法人代表，搞这个出版社的时候，他觉得有些书在内地印就比较困难，人家一看都是有迷信色彩，不给出。他就在那儿注册一个出版社，他兼法人代表。后来我就提出来了，几个人都在场。我就说，老师是不是不兼这个法人代表，法人代表大家都知道，那是老板哪，是不是叫纪烈武兼着就可以了。其他人没吭声，因为其他人听过我讲过几次，李洪志呢，老在那低着头不吭声，不表态，后来谁再也不说了。我回想一下这个事呢，他控制这个权哪，是为了想控制这个钱，还是在这个钱上。我用的书呢，也得自己拿钱买的。有一次我在谁的家里我忘了，刘桂荣就从广州运书回来了，就是那个香港出的书。她递给我了3本，我一看印得挺好，我就放到边上，我没看。刘桂荣转一圈回来了，她说，老于，你这些书折合人民币5l块多，你就交50块钱吧。我反正心里动了一下，我就掏了50块钱给她。我动一下的意思呢，我当时以为给我呢，因为这个书稿发出去，香港纪烈武是从我这里拿走的。那么我的感觉就是，在捞钱这方面，认钱不认人。李洪志虚假的伪君子这一套，在经济这方面，捞钱这方面，体现得非常明显。

　　问：你说李洪志是个大骗子，都有哪些表现?

　　于：我感到李洪志这个家伙，是个真正的大骗子。他有一套诡辩术，他能找到一些冠冕堂皇的理由，来自圆其说，掩盖自己骗人的一些手法和做法。他说是能够给人下“法轮”，小腹部位下“法轮”。这个“法轮”呢，24小时不停地旋转，既能够帮助你治病，又能帮助你练功。当有人提问他，怀孕的妇女，“法轮”下进去，不是把孩子给绞死了吗?李洪志就说，我下的这个“法轮”呢，不在你现在的这个肉体身上，是在你另外的空间的体内的小腹部位，他说那个不会绞死人的，如果要是绞死人，那正常人不是把肠子给绞断了吗?他说那是在另外空间的你那个体上。他就这样一编造，一说，反正别人也看不见，也摸不着，那就信了他编造的这个瞎说。再一个说是功能显示不显示，他也会骗人，他就让大家体验，他说我不能给你们表演，我给你们体验。他作带功报告，打个“法轮”叫大家伸手体验体验，我接过他3次，我都没感到“法轮”在手上转，后来我问我老伴你转不转哪?她说不转，那她是应该给我说实话的。我就问问熟人，你感到转了没有?他说根本不转。所以就通过功能这方面，李洪志他没有这个本事，但是他能编出一套歪理邪说来骗人，把人骗得还没话可问。我就觉得他这个骗术啊，还是挺高，所以叫他个大骗子啊，并不过分的。

　　那么他开始的时候，我也挺相信的，不知道，不知道，我也挺相信的。后来我得到一本《破译大千世界之谜》这本书，后来呢我又看了一个《人类生命起源》这个录像带，是美国科学院录的。他李洪志讲这个特别是讲史前文化这一节，好多东西都是剽窃来的，人家别人的东西，他拿来当作他的用。他说加蓬共和国有个核反应堆，在72年的时候，把铀矿石卖给法国，后来一说是含铀量很低，一考察说是20亿年前建造的一个核反应堆，运转了50万年。当李洪志讲的时候呢，我觉得这个人可能是真有神通，那就是这茬人类之前，这茬人类按照达尔文说，这茬人最多不超过1万年，中国都说上下五千年或者是七千年，李洪志怎么知道这个20亿年建造的，运转了50万年?我感到这个人可能真是有功能。那么当我看到这本书以后呢，他是偷的那本书里的东西。他讲的那些，其他那些考古类的那些东西，就是那个录像带里的。录像带里头呢，它集中报道了考古学家和历史学家的东西，他也是从那里头剽窃来的，当作他自己的，装腔作势，吹嘘是他自己的东西。

——编者

　　问：你说李洪志是个有政治野心的人，主要体现在哪些方面?

　　于：我觉得李洪志整个这个传功活动，他是有政治目的的。他首先就是建立组织，一般的组织形式就是，“法轮功”研究会，这是最高一级吧，直接由李洪志控制，下面有总站，再就是辅导站，再就是练功点。再就是大的辅导站就分成片，基本上就算是五级，五级组织形式。

　　李洪志对“法轮功”这个行政组织，他还不是光控制研究会，他还对什么分站、辅导站，他也插手，也过问。北京一个分站长，在一个会上提了一个问题，李洪志叫大家提问题嘛，提了这个问题呢，可能是李洪志回答不出来哟也不知是怎么回事，可能是回答不出来。李洪志当时说，你这个思想混乱，我不回答你这个问题。后来李洪志就对北京站的负责人说，把这个分站长换了，他不胜任这个分站长。那么就是说，对李洪志不能够随着他意来的，他说换就把你换了。

　　除这个之外呢，李洪志我们在送他到美国定居的时候，他对那个北京辅导站的人讲，站长就请示一下，问老师还有什么指示。李洪志就说，你不要光发展老头老太太，要多发展点年轻人，这样对“法轮功”以后发展有好处。那么就是说，北京站就执行这个了，后来就什么年轻的，什么少年的、青年的，就叫下边往这方面发展。李洪志除了这个外，李洪志还授意至少是北京辅导站，总站吧，他说你再搞一些业务组织，比如说是“老年学法活动组”，要那个副局级以上的一些老干部。这个已经有了，我还参加过一次会。还叫那个北京总站搞一个“文艺活动组”，这个已经有人了。还搞了一个“科技人员组”，层次都比较高，都是研究员哪，教授这样的，研究生也有，少。李洪志就是，他用这些人成立的辅助组织吧，他的用意呢，我觉得也是挺清楚的，那如果没有政治目的，没有邪的东西，他搞这个干什么?那就是说，如果一旦他要搞政府的话，这些人马上就可以摆个架式出来，就不必再物色人去。

　　问：还有没有具体的事?

　　于：李洪志他老是说“法轮功”没有组织，实际上不是那么回事。譬如说是围攻北京电视台，围攻新闻媒体，这些事都是有布置、有组织的。围攻北京电视台这件事，当时我知道，后来是电视台说啊，我们只能给你放一个“法轮功”的练功镜头，别的事我们不能做，不能够道歉啊或者更正。当时李洪志知道以后，没达到他的目的，很不满意。我说他说什么了，我就问李昌，李昌说是，李洪志讲，他说老李，我什么具体事都跟你说了，就是差一句话叫你去1万人，这句话没说，这件事呢，就没翻过来。我当时就问李昌，翻过来是什么意思，叫北京电视台道歉?他说不是那个意思，是逼着中央出来说话，承认“法轮功”合法存在。再看一个具体的事呢，就是《转法轮》这本书，第一次呢，突击出来以后，我就拿到手了。我就打了个电话告诉他，我说《转法轮》这本书出来了，我手里就有。他说你赶快送两本我看一看，我就坐着公共汽车送去了。他就住在东单。当时就是刘桂荣在。我送去了以后，他就是很快地翻了一下，看看封面呀封底，里面印的呀看了一下。然后他做了一个动作，他把这个书翻了一下以后呢，他也坐在沙发上，前面有个茶几，这是一颗重磅炸弹，李洪志说了这么一句话。我当时呢，没有往政治上考虑，因为李洪志再三声称，他不参与政治啊，不反对政府啊，不投靠任何敌对势力，我也没有朝这样想。当我交待问题的时候，我就提到了这件事，我想这颗重磅炸弹，“法轮功”的一本书，怎么能比喻成重磅炸弹呢?那么后来我就联系到政治上，他的野心上来看，他这个《转法轮》就是要炸政府的，这个就很清楚地看到他有政治野心、政治目的了。

　　问：根据你的认识和经历，谈谈“法轮功”为什么能迷惑这么多人?

　　于：李洪志一传出来这个“法轮功”，现在来看确实它的欺骗性是很大的，我觉得很多人上当受骗，我考虑了一下，李洪志能够把“法轮功”发展这么多的人，他利用了三个“诱饵”，使得一些人上当受骗。第一个“诱饵”就是“祛病健身”。这个迎合了一些有病的人他的心理状态。李洪志就说，你进了我这个班，进了我这个门，我就能够治好你的病，我可以包治百病。你就觉得病得很重，你也要来，保证没有生命危险。这样就是说，你练这个功既不用吃药又能治好病，那当然就是可以吸引人的，它有吸引力呀。所以，他这个班的人是越来越多。另外他在开始的时候一边办班一边治病，他自己也说，为了扩大知名度，因为“法轮功”刚刚到北京来，还没有打开局面，这样使得更多的人来认识“法轮功”，来练“法轮功”。他这个班的人逐渐多，一个班比一个班多，赶到后期的班都有4000来人。开始第一个班也就 100来人。我当时也有冠心病啊，高血压病，慢性萎缩性胃炎，这三个主要的病。所以有人给我介绍李洪志的功的时候，我也就去了第一班。我听他讲的是挺神的，所以开始我是不怎么太信，不太信，我一边练功一边吃药。后来李洪志就那么讲，你一边练功一边吃药，那就是你不相信我这“法轮功”能治病，你要相信“法轮功”能治病，你就把药停了，你试试看一看，保证没有生命危险。从此我这药就停了。后来就是“4·25”以后，领导上就派医生给我检查身体，一检查呢，我这血压都是很高的，都在180呀、200呀，都到过。做这个心电图呢，医生跟我说，你这个冠心病还挺重的，T波都是倒置的。后来他就把我过去的病历就调来了，调来一对照，他给我看一下子，他说你看看，你相信“法轮功”能治病，你这个心脏病比过去还重。

　　我老伴也是这样子，她都是病退的，也是高级职称，实在坚持不了工作了，她下来了。下来以后也是病急乱投医，就是说“法轮功”能够治病啊，效果好，也去了，也单独找过李洪志治过，挂了两次号给治过病，一直是不好。后来我到李洪志那里去送书稿，我特意就把我老伴带了去了。去了以后，李洪志也给调理一下。后来说，你这个不是什么病，后来他个别和我说一下子，她身上有—条大龙，以后修成了的话就跟这条龙一块去天国。其实事实上也是骗人的，根本就不是那么回事，所以我老伴也是那么病恹恹的样子，一天也是半死不活的这种状态。我编了两本修炼故事，有很多人就是看了这两本书以后修炼“法轮功”的。书中有一些祛病健身的事例，这些事例没有一件是我亲自核对过的。事实上，我和我老伴的病也都没有治好，所以李洪志说这个能够祛病健身，确实使得很多人上当受骗。　　

　　问：李洪志骗人有三个“诱饵”，你刚才说了第一个，那第二个是什么?　

　
　　于：李洪志用的第二个“诱饵”就是“真、善、忍”。他当时这一招是很迷惑人的。一般人本性都讲真、讲善、讲忍的；他也利用人们这一种心理状态，来把人骗到他这里边来。他吹嘘他说他这个“真、善、忍”呢，就是最高的佛法。他说佛法像个金字塔似的，最高点这就是大道，那就是三个字就可以概括，“真、善、忍”。所以就是说，你是个好人，你是个坏人，“真、善、忍”是衡量你的唯一标准。就是说，他利用社会上一些丑恶现象，人们对这个有点反感。所以他宣扬说，现在社会上丑恶泛滥，他说唯独我这个“法轮功”是一块净土，所以他利用人们对丑恶现象的反感心理，他来把人们拉拢他这边。他说我讲这个“真、善、忍”就在我这个大法里边，就在《转法轮》里边。《转法轮》尽管三、四十万字，就是讲了三个字，就是讲“真、善、忍”。所以你们就读我这个书，你就能做好人，就可以达到，将来有很好的一个去处。其实李洪志讲的这个“真、善、忍”，我觉得也是假的。他自己做的事呀，我觉得也不真、也不善、也不忍。那么用他自己的行为就表示出来了，事后一琢磨就是这个，当时我觉得他还是像那么回事似的。举个例子说吧，哈尔滨办班的时候，他讲完课以后，学员都回到住处去了，旅馆呀、宾馆呀，住处去了。有一个学员回去，就是那个病发作了，当时就送到医院去了也没救过来，后来就给抬到班上去了，他一听说，根本不见，就从后门溜跑了。他说什么那个善心哪、慈悲心哪，自己就在这个地方暴露出来了，哪去了?你让人家修善你哪去了?根本就没有这个事。说是“忍”这个问题呢，我现在也回忆了一下，他这个人还真不忍，怒还挺多。我看到他第一次发怒是对着《贵州气功报》批评“法轮功”，正好我在他那地方，我们几个都在他那地方，他过去接个电话，当时气得脸红脖子粗的，在那个地方自己牢骚了一顿，坐在那不吭声，本来他平时就不怎么说话，好久。当时我就在想，不知道批评什么玩意，我也没看报纸，怎么怒到这种程度了，不讲忍吗?他这个也没忍得了。我就觉得你当老师的教人，为人表率，就这样的?……所以说他讲的这个“真、善、忍”是完全为了笼络人心，准备将来壮大势力以后对抗政府的，他这也是骗人上当的，也是一个诱饵。

　　问：还有呢?

　　于：还有第三个“诱饵”就是“消业”、“度人”，这也是李洪志诱人上当受骗的一个手法。他说这个人是转世来的，元神是不灭的。如果说这个人有这个“业力”，你要是转到下一世“业力”就更大。我一开始练“法轮功”主要是我有病，我老伴有病，一块去练的“法轮功”。听他这么一讲，他说有病是“业力”造成的。那我当时也就想，我这个病是不是转世转来的。我就害怕，如果是个坏人转世到我这来了，我要是不消这个“业”，我以后会遭灾遭难，那么我就相信了他这个“消业”说。实际上李洪志这个是个谬论，不是这么回事。他说我讲的这个佛法是最高层的佛法，他也暗示说我也是最高的佛，比释迦牟尼还高，比耶稣还高。你就听我的课也好，不听我的课，读《转法轮》也好，我就可以帮助你“消业”。我的《转法轮》呢，每一个字，你从浅层次上看，都是一个“法轮”，从深层次上看，每一个字都是我的“法身”。我这个“法轮”就是能帮助你治病，也能帮助你健身。他说这个“度人”，我觉得也是那个样子。他在《法轮大法义解》那本书里头，靠后半部分吧，他就讲过，人类将会遇到四大灾难，一个是洪水灾，再一个就是地震，第三个就是战争，最后就是瘟疫。他说这四大灾难都是要遇到的，也都要淘汰一批坏人的。只有修炼我这个“真、善、忍”，它是衡量好坏人的唯一标准，它就是能够避免这个灾难的，好人是能够避免灾难的。你这个“业力”大，师父功高可以帮助你消好多，我就能给你消绝大部分，我就能帮你消这么大“业”，只要虔诚地修我的“法轮功”，我就给消这么大“业”。剩下那一点那也是比山还高，你也过不去的，怎么办呢?他说我就把你的“业力”一点点把它分解开，一个时间让你消一个“业”，老是这么不断不断地给你消这个“业”，所以你老感到老有病，老有事，这都是好事。我想现在来看，人都死了个屁的，怎么能是这样的?实际上他就是蒙骗你上当，就是你感到病也没好啊，这怎么回事?怕怀疑他。我也是跟他上这个当的。我的病还没好，按着他说，就是还有“业力”吗!像我这样的一个经常还在他身边转转，还是个“大法”骨干，也消不了“业”，那些站长也消不了“业”，没见过他的，或者有上班的练的功少的人，不是更消不了“业”吗?所以说他这个“度人”和“消业”都是骗人的。既“度”不了人，也消不了“业”。

　　我觉得他这三个“诱饵”，起的作用是很坏的，糊弄了几百万人在练他的这个功，都叫他的三个“诱饵”上了他的钩了，上他的圈套，受他的骗上当造成的。他这样壮大他的队伍，将来好实现他的政治目的。我感觉这三个“诱饵”也是挺厉害的。

——编者

　　问：现在仍有少数人痴迷于“法轮功”，这个“法轮功”你看它为什么有这么大的控制力呢?

　　于：根据我的感觉，有些人痴迷在“法轮功”里边不能够自拔，其中也包括我在内。我感到李洪志呢，他有三个“紧箍咒”，他一旦把这些人诱惑上钩以后，他就想办法把你控制住，“法轮功”这个邪教，我觉得最邪的一个地方就是精神控制。

　　第一个“紧箍咒”呢，我觉得就是“以法为师”。这个李洪志特别强调，经常地讲，班上也讲。他说以后我就不再传功了，再练功的人你就是看我这个书，看我的书呢，你什么都能得到，我这个书里头什么都有，我就讲这一部“大法”。他这样做，他还要求，你不要去抠、抠他的书，他在一篇小文里头就讲，有的人呢，他不是在那好好读书、去背书，他在那儿抠哪句话是什么意思，他说你抠来抠去你什么也没有抠到，就不让人家抠。他这个意思，我理解他的意思是，就是说他经不起抠，语法经不起抠，内容也经不起抠。他讲那个“不二法门”，不让你看别的书，什么书都不让看，尤其是气功书。他这个意思呢我理解，恐怕是他有的是偷人家的东西，放在里边当他的，你如果一看别的，不就知道了吗?北京辅导站开了个会，怎么样学习“大法”。他们就提出来了，那就是学“大法”，修心性，练动作。大家伙儿说也可以呀。后来我就跟他们说，我也参加了他那个会，我说能不能在每句话前面再加一个字，强调一下，精读“大法”，真修心性，苦练动作。他们在出学员心得体会里就用了这三句话，大家都觉得挺好。李洪志看到这个材料了，有一次我碰到他了，他就质问我，他说那三句话是不是你写的，我说是我写的，我就没有解释那些过程。他说你这是破坏我的“大法”，什么叫精读，精读什么，你就那么往下念，你不要领会什么意思，他说过去那些和尚念的那些经书，不就是古印度语翻译过来的吗，不是汉语，就是古印度语的译音，他不是一样的修佛吗?李洪志在“以法为师”这上头，他就是那个把人给拢住，要不然的话，他不传功，为什么还在继续发展，而且这些人迷在里头，还出不来，这一条很重要的。所以他这个“以法为师”，他这个使人不能自拔，时间都消耗在这里边，他就是来麻木你，来控制你，我觉得这是“以法为师”的内容。

　　问：第二个“紧箍咒”是什么?

　　于：我感觉他的第二个“紧箍咒”就是“法身保护”。李洪志吹嘘说，我有无数个“法身”，就是全世界的人练“法轮功”，我都能保护得了。所以说他“法身”保护了以后，不会受外界干扰，也不会受什么侵害。这就是他说的“法身保护”。他在这还威胁说，我这个“法身”就在你身后，你一动念，你想什么，你做什么，我这个“法身”都知道，比如你去不去围攻媒体，我的“法身”也知道，所以说有的人围攻媒体的时候没有去。我就接到那么一个人的电话，他说你看看我没有去。我说你没去就没去吧，他说那老师知道了呢，我说知道了可能会原谅你吧。就说明他把人给控制得迈一步、一行动，都害怕他控制。所以说，你去不去围攻媒体呀，你签不签名呀，你到不到天安门去呀，就包括这次自焚，你不到天安门去，你就“圆满”不了。他就是觉得我要不去，老师就知道，我就不能“圆满”，我就修了也白修，练了也白练，何必呢，所以说他这个“法身保护”呢控制人。也就是说，人的精神哪，有点不是常人那种思维状态。所以这个精神控制，他这个“法身”在这儿，这个“紧箍咒”很厉害呀，这个“紧箍咒”。为什么我想叫个“紧箍咒”呢?我看到《西游记》，那个孙悟空他有点违背唐僧的意志的话，他就头疼得不行，那么就是说，练功人要是不这样做，不按他的意思去办，那要是这个“法身”知道了，也是会惩罚的。因此就是说，练功人叫这个“法身”控制，这个“紧箍咒”也是很毒的一手。

　　问：第三个“紧箍咒”是什么?

　　于：我感到第三个“紧箍咒”就是李洪志说的“最后圆满”。他说“最后圆满”就是你修成佛了，修成佛的就可以到天国世界去，东方人就叫作佛，西方人就叫作神。他说佛的世界是很美好的，要什么有什么，伸手就来，这是你修炼的功德。所以你不修炼“圆满”，那就是还在“六道轮回”，还是变成植物啊，变成动物啊，变成物质啊，你要是转生成个人，那还是不错的，但是你还得要吃苦，还得要受罪，所以“圆满”是最终的奋斗目标。这样一想呢，有的人就是要“精进”哪，要“实修”哪，要不然的话，前功尽弃，修了也白修，练了也白练，吃的苦也就白吃了。所以有一些人就什么也不顾了，家也不管了，整天在这地方“学法实修”。有些人就是为了“圆满”，什么亲情也不管了。我特别是看了那录像也是那个样子。所以李洪志说是到天安门去，这是“圆满”的最后一步。我个人觉得，李洪志这是走到穷途末路去了，他再也没有招了，他这一手再不拿出来，那么就是说，他再也没有什么更骗人的东西了。因此有些人为了“圆满”哪，那就是宁肯自焚，家也不要了，什么也不要了，肉体也不要了，烧死的，上吊的，自杀的，剖腹的，跳楼的，都是为了“圆满”。我觉得这一手是很毒辣的。

　　我感觉，有些人痴迷在“法轮功”里边不能够挣脱出来，从我个人的体会，他先用这个三个“诱饵”把你引诱进来，然后再用三个“紧箍咒”把你控制住。我也就是那个样子，我也就是整天在这个“紧箍咒”控制之下，在这儿读那个《转法轮》，我就两耳不闻窗外事，一心只读《转法轮》，所以在这个地方也是越陷越深，越读越迷。一直到“4，25”以后，我都认识不到。领导上给我多次谈话，我一直执迷不悟，一直后来到隔离审查，领导严肃地对我指出来我的错误，给我严厉的批评，这个时候我对“法轮功”有醒悟。特别是我看到一个材料，揭批“法轮功”的，给我震动很大，所以我就逐步逐步地认识了李洪志的真面目和“法轮功”的这个本质，我才从精神控制当中，从这三个“紧箍咒”当中解脱出来。我感到出来了以后，精神也轻松，生活过得也挺好。因此我就觉得，越是到后期里边的，越是痴迷得很痴的这些人，从我个人感觉，没有外力帮助，自己很难很难能够挣扎出来，摆脱不了“紧箍咒”，怕受惩罚呀，当时知道李洪志的“法身”在后面，知道了怎么办啊，不行，所以外力这么一帮助，一捅破之后，自己再一认识，回头一想，这三个“紧箍咒”就可以解脱掉。如果是光靠自己啊，拒绝帮助啊，就比较难一些。我个人觉得是这样的。

　　问：对那些还在痴迷于“法轮功”的练习者，你有什么话要对他们说?

　　于：我想通过我的感受，这些人应该赶快醒悟过来，这样对(待)家庭，对人民，对国家，都是有好处的。现在李洪志和“法轮功”的真实面目已经大白于天下，他和“民运”分子、“台独”分子、“藏独”分子和民族分裂分子纠合在一起，成为西方的敌对势力反华的一个政治工具。这样的话，我们这些人应该当机立断，与李洪志和“法轮功”彻底决裂。我想，像我这样一个“法轮功”的核心骨干，痴迷得那么深，都能够幡然悔悟，我想这些人一定会很快地转变过来的，在政府“团结、教育、挽救”这个方针感召下，我相信他们会很快转变过来的。尤其是看到最近媒体报道天安门(广场)的自焚事件，更应该很清楚地看出李洪志的邪教反动本质，所以，这样站过来，人民都是会谅解的，国家也是会欢迎的。我就想说这些。

——编者

　　问：在上次的谈话中，你比较集中地讲了李洪志是怎么欺骗人的，怎么用“三个紧箍咒”控制人的，你感到李洪志这么做的主要目的是什么?

　　于：我经过一年多的各级领导机关的教育帮助和我自己的反思，我想了一下李洪志之所以这样做，都是为了实现他的政治图谋的。他的要害问题，就是有政治目的，是有政治野心的，他的野心就是由小往大地膨胀，他的政治野心也是逐步地暴露出来的。

　　李洪志开始一出山的目的，当时我想呢，也就是想赚点钱呢，出个名。后来就是发展以后啊，他就想当这个气功界的头头。再进一步呢，佛教界也想管起来，想当一个精神领袖。越发展越多了，他也有钱了，也有势了，他也就想能管政府的事了，就想主宰一切。

　　他(李洪志)想当功派的头头，他有这么几点，一点就是抬高自己，抬高“法轮功”的地位，他说他自己有四大功能，又能够“下法轮”，又能够“开天目”，练了“法轮功”进了他那个班，就可以没有病，也可以包治百病，他说就是全人类这些人有病，我一挥手病都可以好的。再一点就是贬低其他气功。他说他传这个“法轮功”是高层次的，是宇宙中最精深的。他这个是世界上一切学说中，最玄奥、最超常的科学。他说别的气功师全都是低层次的，都是一些附体功。一些气功门派的掌门人，他说这个气功师是黄鼠狼子附体，他传的功就是黄鼠狼子功，说那个气功师就是身上趴了一条瞎了一只眼的狐狸，他传的功都是狐狸附体的功，都是一些歪门邪道的东西。这样就把其他的一些气功门派把他贬低下去。我也是在这地方当了一下吹鼓手，吹他李洪志和“法轮功”，说是李洪志不是一般的气功师，他是“度人”的，这个“法轮功”也同社会上各家各门派的气功也是不同，也不能够等量齐观，不一样，它是高层次的。这个是在《转法轮》后边，我起草了(《书后》)那么个东西。李洪志看了以后，他认为可以。

　　李洪志看到“法轮功”的修炼者人越来越多，他就不满足，他就想当一个精神领袖。他开始就是把他自己的生日改了。94年我就知道这个事，他把他的生日改到阴历四月初八，四月初八这是释迦牟尼的生日，那么他这里头就给人一种暗示，他就是释迦牟尼转世。但是后来李洪志他又说他比释迦牟尼高，他说我这个是佛法最高层次的“法”，就是释迦牟尼讲的“法”，层次也没有他(李洪志)高。说释迦牟尼也只不过是他在娑婆世界里面。这个娑婆世界在哪里呢，李洪志说就在这个物质世界的最顶端，我是“法轮”世界里边的，是宇宙里面最高的一个佛国里边的。我这个李洪志坐在这给你们讲“法”，我这个身体是七凑八凑拼起来的，我真正那个本体，他(李洪志)的真体是在空中，他就在那儿看着我，我如果是真体在这地方坐着给大家讲“法”，那一看大拂在那一坐，金光闪闪的，十恶不赦的人都要来学，谁都要来听这个“法”了。在96年的年底，在地坛开了一次国际法会，交流会。李洪志那天讲的内容，基本上大部分时间都用在讲未来佛这个事。听的人一下就会听出来，我记得有的人一出了门以后就问我，说李洪志过去讲过一句话，我一直没明白，今天听他这一讲我明白了，他就是弥勒佛，因为释迦牟尼过去讲过，就是接他班的，接释迦牟尼班的那个未来的佛，就叫弥勒佛。所以李洪志明显地就是说，能听出来他就是弥勒佛，也就是未来佛。所以这就是说，他已经就明确说他就是宇宙的大佛，主宰者，捍卫者。他说他就是一个最高的大佛，他当精神领袖好像是顺理成章的事。

　　我记得大概是1994年，李洪志领着刘桂荣，也把我叫去了，还有蓝建华，到中国照相馆，说是照证件照，照一个照片。证件照照完了以后，李洪志就给刘桂荣说了一句，你把包拿过来，刘桂荣就把一个包递给李洪志了。李洪志到更衣室去了，这个时候我还不知道是怎么回事，最后李洪志从更衣室出来以后，我一看，穿上伽裟了，就是和尚穿的衣服。后来就拍了几张打坐的，完了以后又站起来照了一张，照了一张时候呢，当时我有一个明显的感觉，就是跟那个阿弥陀佛那个的像是一样的。　　李洪志觉得，“法轮功”越传越大，面越传越广，这样他就人多势众，就不满足于当精神领袖了，他就想管社会上的事了，想主宰社会。所以他多次暗示过，他在这茬人里头转世过多少次，他说他转世过李世民、康熙，还有岳飞等等，不但在中国转世一些帝王将相，他还讲过，他转世过(英国)威廉十四世。他说(转世过)这些帝王将相，他就想给大家暗示，社会上的事他也能管了。他(书中)有这么四句话《游清陵》：“三百岁月似水流，旧殿荒冢满目秋，谁知今日又来世，他日法正万古留”。这个明显地说，他就是三百年以前的康熙转世，今天又来到社会了。

　　他特别就讲到那个我们这个政府、国家、社会呀，这个道德败坏，世风日下，唯利是图，有些人为了钱什么都敢干，政府都头疼，管不住，唯独我这个“法轮功”是一块净土。这样就是说，他已经就露出来政府都头疼，管不住，他管这个“法轮功”这一块他说是净土，他能管得住，那么他管这个政府，他也就是能够管得住。
再就是从李洪志他个人看的一些书籍，他(出国后)个人书籍，后来(刘桂荣)送到我那去了，有20多本吧。这些书我基本看了一下，分成两大类，一类就是宗教方面的书，特别是佛教方面比较多；第二类就是帝王将相统治术，其中就有《李世民的用人艺术》。那么就可以看出来，他一旦当了帝王将相的时候，那他就可以用，他这套政治统治术就可以用上去。

　　问：你刚才说了，李洪志搞这个“法轮功”有他的政治野心和图谋，你现在回过头看一下，他为实现他的政治野心和图谋都做了哪些事，都是怎么做的?

　　于：第一个方面是舆论上的准备。对这件事，李洪志干这件事是很卖力气的。他就是通过各种渠道，通过各种方式，甚至就是不择手段地来宣传他这个歪理邪说。他宣传这个歪理邪说，一开始就是通过办班，在全国十几个省市区当中，他办了50多个班。他办班听的人毕竟是有数的，为了他扩大势力，扩大影响，制造舆论，他就是准备开始出书了。他从1994年的3月到1998年的年底，先后出了18种图书。这些书的书稿，有的是我整理过的，有的是我没有整理过的现成的书稿，但是送出版社出版的时候，都是经过我手出去的，这些书我看到的数字就是340多万册。除此而外，我还在这里头参与制作了音像制品有4种，这个也是印制了300多万盘。他说特别是边远地区，要往那个地方发展，要多出书。现在有好多人没有书看，有的地方十来个人看一本书。后来就是在1996年的7月份，国家新闻出版署就下了一个内部通知，收缴“法轮功”的四本书，那出版社人家就不出了。这个时候李洪志就是说出盗版书，直接拿着书到印刷厂去，可以告诉各地都这么做。他就对我说，老于，你可以告诉他们出书的，在封底就印上“可以盗版，功德无量”。就是说李洪志在那个出书这上头，他不顾国家的法律，用卑鄙的这种手段，无所不用其极。除此之外，他又搞了一些印徽章，就是那个“法轮章”，再就是印照片、挂图，还有他的那个大挂像等等这些东西，也是来造舆论。我感觉有一件事很能说明一个问题，就是当这本《转法轮》刚一出来，李洪志就说，这是一颗“重磅炸弹”。我当时也没有往政治方面去想，因为李洪志再三地说他不参与政治，所以我就没有往政治上去想。我想现在来看，李洪志所以很看重了这本书，把这说得那么重要，在李洪志的心目中，他把这本书已经当成了欺骗人心、争夺群众，向党争夺思想阵地的一个重要武器。在整个造舆论这个过程当中，特别是出书籍和这个音像制品当中，我都是积极地在为他做这件事，我就是一个得力的帮凶。所以我一想到我帮了李洪志宣传歪理邪说，我确实是罪孽是很深重的。我看到给一些家庭，给一些个人，给社会，以致给国家造成了很大的损失，没法挽救的一些损失，我对这些损失，感到没法都能够挽救回来的。我也只能够在我这有生之年里，在囹圄之中，尽我所能，能够挽救多少就挽救多少。

——编者

　　问：你刚才讲了李洪志做了舆论准备，你再谈一谈他所做的一些其它方面的准备。

　　于：李洪志也特别注意组织方面的准备，他到那个地方一办班，这个班没结束之前，他马上就把这个组织定下来了。我自己亲自参加的就是郑州那个班，他那天就把我 (们)叫到一块去了。去了以后，大概在场的有六七个人，他就叫这几个人，准备郑州成立一个辅导站，他就指定你、你、你，就指定这么三四个人，其中指定一个人呢，你拉总，你们这个辅导站就建立起来了。他很注意这方面的事，在北京也是这样的。王治文呢我就听他说过，李洪志办过班的地方，基本上都叫总站，他没办过班的地方都叫辅导站。上面是最高一层就是“研究会”，下面是总站、辅导站、分站、练功点。上面没有总站的，大的辅导站它下面就有片。这个组织上级管下级，一级管一级，一级控制一级。所以它这个“研究会”权力是很大的，它既有组织，分工还挺细，也有权威，行动也很快，是这么一个机构。它很有权威呢，这是李洪志授予的权威。李洪志也是在《义解》那本书中说，在班上就跟听课的人讲，“研究会”有什么规定，有什么指示，你们都照办，那个都是经过我批准签发的，就是我不在的情况下，“研究会”都是通过传真的方式，或电话的方式给我说了，经过我修改我签发同意了的，又传回来然后再传达给你们下边的，所以“研究会”发出的一些指示，一些规定，你们都要执行的。所以“研究会”的权威挺大，下面一听到说是“研究会”的，人家自然就把这件事联系到是李洪志的。因为李洪志有话在先，所以人家在这个地方都看得很重的。这个办事很快，效率也很高。李洪志有什么指示，他都是发经文的，就是那个小文，短篇的，一个一个的，他写好了就当面交给纪烈武，或者是传真就发到他(纪烈武)的家，纪烈武的妻子王小燕她会打字，所以她就把它打出来。打出来以后她就是，给全国有38个站，给他(们)发去。再就是给几个大站发传真，有长春站、大连站、济南站、武汉站、广州站等等吧发传真。再就是电话，打电话，就那么就传开了，很快呀。就说不管是“研究会”的一些指示规定啦，或者是李洪志的，不超过两天。

　　李洪志建了这些各级组织以后，他就又规定了一套，一些规章制度，一些规定。他自己就亲自起草了一个对“法轮大法”总站的要求，辅导员标准，再就是修炼者须知。除了这几个规定之外还有一个《章程》。这个《章程》，在第一本书《中国法轮功》中就有，那个是李昌给我找一个范本，我就按照那个范本，结合“法轮功”的情况写的，这也是我的罪状一条。后来的时候，李洪志就主张就说，这本书要修改一下，其中就把《章程》撤掉。但是我现在细想了一下，就说李洪志把这个《章程》撤掉了，他怕露马脚，因为你既然没有组织，你怎么出来《章程》呢?现在那个《章程》也是名亡实存，还是这套程序，还是按照那个《章程》程序往下运行的。

　　李洪志在发展组织这一方面，特别重视发展年轻人。李洪志就说这个“大法”，是要永远传下去的，光有老头，老太太那不行，那必须要有年轻的接班人。李洪志这个话呢，也都传到全国(各个)辅导站里去了，所以全国那些辅导站呢，也在注重发展青年人，甚至是学生当中。这个学生还不光是大学生，中学生，小学生，连幼儿园都有。我就看到了一张照片，是一个幼儿园的，也就是那么五六岁小孩，都挺可爱的小孩在那地方打坐练功，双盘，那一般的还都盘不了的呢，那就是说明练了好长时间了。那就说这个后备力量一直发展到这。大连有个交流会，大连一次交流会的录像带呢，拿到王治文那，后来我看到了。有一位母亲抱着一个小孩，大概也就是三岁那个样子吧，小孩，抱到台上去，在话筒那个地方背经文，开始时候可能是小孩她妈妈说，你大点声、大点声，小孩把声音放大一点，背了一段经文抱下去了。所以他的“大法”要永远传下去的话，他这个接班人的话，那就是一批一批跟着上来的，所以从这点来看，我就想说一句呀，那以后政府不宣布取缔“法轮功”，那以后可了不得，这李洪志野心大得简直都不可收拾。

　　再一种形式呢他搞那个基地，这也是发展后备力量的。他觉得呢这个基地有两个任务，他说了，一个就是培训一些骨干，就是现在辅导员以上的这些站长什么的。他这个基地还有一个目的，就是外国人到中国来学“法轮功”，都要到那个基地去学，那么有人就推荐了一个怀来那个地方，就是河北省的怀来县，在官厅水库的北边，他也去看了一下，“研究会”的几个人也去了看了一下。过了一段时候以后不知道什么原因，李洪志说不在北京搞了，不搞了。我就回想了一下，李洪志不搞这个基地呀，从他心里来讲并不甘心的，就是说他不是他心里不想搞，是那个政治形势所迫，他不能搞。因为在1996年6月份，《光明日报》就发表了一篇文章，对着“法轮功”就开了第一炮。说《转法轮》是封建迷信邪说，宣传封建迷信，要警钟长鸣。7月份紧接着就是新闻出版署收缴“法轮功”的4本书。李洪志这个人，我感觉他的嗅觉上是很敏感的。因此就是这两种情况一出，他想这个基地不能搞了，政府对他已经注意了，所以搞了这个基地不但是用不上，而且呢，赚的钱恐怕赔进去了不少，所以这个基地不搞了，我想他是这个意思。

　　李洪志第三个就是物质方面的准备，这方面他主要是通过多种渠道聚敛钱财。他开始初期的时候，就是通过办班啊，治病啊，卖资料，再后一点就是出书，出音像制品，再就出一些大挂图什么的，就是他穿练功服的那种照片，来赚点钱。在96年以后，他把国内出书出资料这事，都转给武汉深深公司去办去了。据我知道就是，在内地印的这些书吧，他就赚了五六百万。再一个就是在香港注册了一个“法轮佛法出版社”。在那个地方出书，他一部分书运到内地来发售，再一部分对着东南亚的。另外呢，这个“法轮佛法出版社”，它负责对其他那些国家外文本的签订合同，给李洪志稿费。他从这地方呢，再获得一部分钱财。所以李洪志通过多种渠道聚敛钱财，而且他还是不择手段地聚敛钱财。我想呢，他搞这些钱，就是为了他到国外去，达到他的政治目的，他搞的一个物质基础。

　　李洪志第四个方面的准备就是投靠敌对势力的准备。他在国内传功到1994年底，他就宣布结束了。那是在广州最后的一个班，他在国内就不传功了。他觉得这几个大的练功点和全国的发展形势，他以为中国“法轮功”这个地盘比较稳定了，这些站长也比较可靠，所以他就想着往国外发展。所以他在95年的3月份，他就出国了。他重点就是美国。他觉得“法轮功”这个受阻，受政府的干涉，甚至给你取消了，那么他在国外有一个基地立住脚。他在国外传一次功，都建一个辅导站，这个辅导站就是他的基地。所以李洪志他看中了美国这个地方，他后来就决定到美国去。我说他是移巢美国。96年春夏这个时候。李昌给我讲，他说要给老师要办个出国手续，需要五、六个名人推荐，他说你是教授一级的，也算是名人，推荐人也算一个。你不用办别的事，你就是利用那个学院的空白信纸，在右下角写个名字就行了，也不要写日子，当时我就照着李昌这个事就办了。现在我想一下子，我也是为了李洪志逃跑助了一臂之力。

——编者

　　问：你前面说了，李洪志的政治野心是逐步膨胀，他的准备工作也是紧锣密鼓的，根据你了解的情况，谈谈他是怎么来实施他的政治图谋的?

　　于：我回忆了一下，李洪志搞“法轮功”邪教是有组织有步骤进行的，大体上可以分成四个步骤。第一个步骤就是“传功弘法”，扩张势力。我想了一下大概有5种形式。他第一种形式就是采取人传人、亲传亲。譬如我就是一个朋友，就给我介绍李洪志6月25号晚上在北京办班，你是不是去听一听，他讲的和别人不一样，那我也就参加这个班了。他这种形式，就是以个人为一个点吧，它向外扩散，这是第一种形式。第二种形式就是扩增练功点，譬如说北京的中山公园这个练功点，当时中山公园没有练功点，他就把西城一个练功点的人，就调到中山公园去练功，再加有一个人宣传“法轮功”特点，还有一个辅导员在那儿讲解，他就是用这么一个练功点辐射到周围地区，使得再继续扩大。第三种形式就是几千人的大场面练功。这个固然是能够吸收一些人，但是这里边包含有政治因素在里边。一个就是他是给新闻媒体一点颜色看一看，就是说我能够一呼百应，如果媒体再有什么批评的话，我去三五个人，十个八个人不行的话，我可以多去人；第二个意思呢，给中央施压。就说是“法轮功”这么多人练功，还没有注册，你中央看了怎么办。所以就是说这个几千人大场面练功，它是在新闻媒体批评了以后出现的那么一个(产物)，不是开始就有的，它是随着形势的发展出来的这么一个产物，所以说它带有政治性在里头。第四种办班形式，就是利用李洪志的音像制品到比较远的地方，偏僻的地方去办班。它这个办班的形式、程序以至方法，都是按照李洪志办班的那套形式搞的，实际上说白了一点就等于李洪志不在的情况下，按照李洪志的方式办的班，这个也是招了很多人。第五种形式就是交流会，用简单的称法就叫作“法会”。“法会”也就是交流会。他说我这儿有票你去不去，你去可以听一听，这样的话没学过的人也就去听了，学的人也去听。这5种形式，李洪志已经就把它最后定下来了。

　　李洪志采取的第二个步骤就是上书中央，谋取合法地位。“法轮功研究会”是1996年的3月份提出，李洪志提出要退出(中国气功科学研究会)，到12月底，气功研究会正式文件出来了，不给“法轮功”注册了。那么到97年的1月开始，叶浩跟李昌在李洪志的指示下，就要找挂靠单位。李洪志的目的就是脱离气功科研会，主要是不受它控制。当时中央有一个气功九人领导小组，他(李洪志)就老说这九人小组他不是支持气功的，他是看着你别出义和团的。我觉得这时候李洪志就是有做贼心虚这个感觉。李昌就开始起草第一封信，给统战部的，就想注册一个协会，当时的名字叫“法轮佛学会”。在1997年的9月底，好像是9月27号，中央统战部对这个“法轮功”申请注册报告有一个批复，我记得那个批复文件里头，有两句话对我印象很深，一句话就是不支持、不赞成成立“法轮佛学会”，第二句话就是要警惕“法轮功”发展成邪教。

　　大概是7、8月份吧，新闻出版署呢，它就有一个像是《情况反映》一类的东西，就说是反映“法轮功”这里面一些阴暗面的东西。这个呢，不知道他们怎么得到的这个东西，我看到过一个复印件，这东西呢又影响到注册，所以就决定给，朱总理和(写转)呈江主席的信，告新闻出版署的状，就说新闻出版署反映的情况不是事实，欺骗中央首长。那么实际上来看的话，那就是有点颠倒黑白，恶人先告状。起草那封信我参加了，我提了一个意见，我说是不是加上一点内容，就说《光明日报》和新闻出版署首先带头批评“法轮功”，引发了全国媒体都在批评“法轮功”，起了很坏的影响。李昌就提了个建议，就是说这次不光是几个人签名，这次以这个老干部活动组这个名义签名，所以有一天就开了一个老干部组活动会，对外就说是老干部“学法交流会”，有两三个人也发了言。这个时候李洪志就闯进来，后边就是刘桂荣、纪烈武也就跟着进来了。我坐的位置比较靠边，老干部围了圈坐着，二十多个人吧。李洪志坐下来以后，讲了一下子他在国外传功的情况，讲了国内的一些发展的情况，然后再问大家有什么问题要提一提，完了以后李洪志就到外边去了。这些老干部就看了这封信，就以老干部的集体的名义呢，就给中央首长写这封信。李洪志去的这个目的，我当时我就明白，他不是想在那地方讲什么问题，或者是回答什么问题，他的目的就在暗中鼓励这些老干部集体签名告新闻出版署。这是第二封信就是这样的。

　　第三封信呢就是8、9月份吧，李昌电话叫我到他那儿去一趟，就在白石桥叶浩家里。我去了以后已经有六七个人了，都是北京站的人，有“研究会”的人，他李昌呢手里拿了一张纸，说是他接到新疆一个什么县的一个练功人的电话，说是公安部一局有一个555号通知，限制“法轮功”活动，大概就是这么个意思吧。李昌就说是不是咱们还采取上一封信的办法，还给总理写信，大家说是可以。后来讨论一下，就说有主件，有附件。在主件讨论的时候，觉得刘树人(起草人)这次呢搞得可以。我在那里头又加了二句话，我就提了一个意见，说那个基层民警所以敢这样胡作非为，他就依靠公安部这个通知，他敢这样做，起了很恶劣的作用。他们觉得这句话也可取，也把它写进去了。李昌有一个建议，他说是那个第二封信呢，才二十来个人签名，咱们这一次能不能搞一个百人签名，更有说服力，力量更大，大家也都同意，就搞了个百人签名。“研究会”的人，也包括北京站的一些人，他都明明知道全国有死人的，或者是有些那个精神不正常状态这样的，都有。我知道就有两个，就是济南死了一个，在哈尔滨办班死了一个。这些事不提，却跑那里头吹毛求疵地去抠你别的东西，就是在颠倒黑白，种种说法去诬告公安部。所以就说这两封信，我感觉手段也是挺恶劣的。包括我在内，我那两条意见也是起了很坏的作用的。

　　第四封信就是给李瑞环主席的。快到年底了，李昌有一天跟我说，他看到了一本佛教协会里面，一个负责人叫陈星桥，写了一本，出了一本书叫作《佛教气功与法轮功》，里边是批评“法轮功”的。李昌把我叫到那个白石桥以后，也是有好几个人在，他说，听到说佛教协会可能是归政协管，所以这封信就决定给李瑞环主席，告佛教协会。

　　李洪志从国外回来以后，看到那两封信，一个是给统战部的，一个是给(告)出版署的。那天在李昌那个地方，他就说我看到了这两封信，写得很好，很有力量，也很有份量，特别是告出版暑的那封信。李洪志为什么说它是有份量呢，也有力量呢，就是他看到《光明日报》首先给“法轮功”打了一炮以后，李洪志他挺恼火的，他就在东南亚打电话给李昌说，要发动学员，发动学员给它(《光明日报》)写信，也可以给出版署写信，给《光明日报》写信。从此以后就把这件事整个就布置全国。我听说是《光明日报》这个信，就有两麻袋，写了那么老多的信。从此以后，李洪志就把这个整个练功人就推到他实现他的政治目的的第一线上去了，就直接出面和那些有关部门的，所谓的那个“讨公道”。接着李洪志就写了一个《大曝光》，这么一篇小文，就批评了一些人不敢出去，不敢到媒体去。那么现在来看一下我感到就是，李洪志这个《大曝光》实际上就是一个动员令，也是他检验一下，他这些练功人能不能够一呼百应，也能不能够到关键时刻能够跟他走。他就说到不敢出去的人，他说你怕什么，有的人就讲得挺好，我脑袋掉了我身子还在那儿打坐呢。所以说《大曝光》出来以后，有很多的学员感到后悔透了，没写信啦或者是没到那个媒体去呀，就这样的。所以后来再媒体有什么事儿了，那各地的学员非常积极呀，就生怕把自己落下去。譬如说，北京就有一个学员，我就接到他一个电话，他说是你看看我，这个没有去呀，影不影响我“圆满”啦。所以说李洪志这个《大曝光》，不光作用很恶劣，他这个手段特毒辣，用心也最恶毒。从此以后，也就说从88年(口误，实为98年)，特别是下半年，这个“研究会”呢，它就不研究“功理功法”方面的一些事了，它就研究如何对付媒体，如何对付政府的事。

　　第三步就是聚集围攻，公开示威较量。李洪志告诉李昌，如果是软的不行，写信不行，就来硬的，就可以去人，去人给讲道理。那么这个围攻的呢，就是人数就越来越多，规模也越来越大，再就是影响越来越坏，它已经就成了影响社会稳定的一股势力了，就像一个毒瘤一样。我所知道的呢，围攻比较典型的，就有齐鲁晚报，有北京电视台和围攻中央。

　　先说这个围攻齐鲁晚报。我就知道听王治文说呢，已经就去过好几次了，人不多，开始三五个，后来十个八个啊，后来二三十啊，后来到可能是到几十，僵持在那个地方了。

　　济南站长就写了一个材料寄给那个报社的，也给下面下发的，他不知怎么带来三份，准备给王治文的。后来呢，李小妹，一天她路过我们家门口，她就把这份材料给我，她说你看一下，给王治文的。其中说了一句话，他说报社批评有积极的一面，我对这句话第一遍看了以后，我就感到很刺眼睛。当时我就想，全国上万家报纸刊物都一起出来批评“法轮功”，你都说他有积极的这一面，那不把“法轮功”给批倒了吗?我就这样想，后来我就在这句话，我就用铅笔就写上了“这是投降书”。那济南站看到这个以后，那压力就是很大呀，那张寿强后来就组织了八九百人去围攻齐鲁报社、齐鲁晚报，逼得人家承认了错误。我在(这里)起了一个很坏的作用。

　　再就是围攻北京电视台。围攻电视台前后我参加了三次会。第一次会大概是在五月二十七、八号，就说是北京电视台呀在《特别快车》节目里头攻击“法轮功”，何祚庥攻击“法轮功”。大家就主张去给他(们)说理，我当时没说什么话，但是我赞成，就是我那种心理状态，我赞成。他们就陆续去找，赶到6月1号，我想是6月1号早晨，李昌把我叫过去了，叫过去我看他们那几个人都是北京站的，主要是北京站的一些负责人，纪烈武在场，李昌又讲了一下子，说今天去的人要多一些，离北京电视台比较近的辅导站要多去点人，如果是跟电视台要谈判的话，你们这些人都可以当代表，还可以现场找几个。大概过了一周时间，就是第三次会，在广渠门医院老干部活动室开，实际上我感到那就是一次总结会，就是围攻电视台的一个总结会。汤学华在那主持，“研究会”(的人)基本上都到了。后来我听李昌跟我讲，他说李洪志知道这个事啊，特别不满意。李洪志当时在欧洲，我就问他说什么了，李昌说，他说李洪志和我说了好长时间，他说老李我什么话都跟你说了，具体事我都给你布置了，就是一句话叫你去一万人没说你没做，这件事就没翻过来，没有办成功。我就问李昌，翻过来什么意思啊?是不是叫他(们)道歉不够啊，还是出报登那个声明啊。他说不是这个意思，说是这个没翻过来，就是李洪志原来给他来电话就讲过，就逼着中央出来说话，承认“法轮功”合法存在。李洪志呢，后来回来以后啊，他就写了一篇小文，就叫《挖根》，那李洪志可是没有客气的，这个《挖根》，就说是没去的人是错的，你要从思想上挖挖你的根，你这“法”没学好，你修得不好，你层次低，离“圆满”你还远去的呢。从此以后啊，因为他这个经文都是发全国呀，全国这些人都给轰起来了，那有些人就是没去过电视台的，下面就是说(只要)有这种事，绝对再不能放过这个机会。正好有一个《健康文摘报》，也登了个什么“法轮功”什么问题。他们就陆陆续续去找，说是不能失掉这个机会。所以说李洪志这个《挖根》呢，就是很明确把这些人都轰到前面去，替李洪志为了实现他的目的，去给他去卖命去。

　　我再说一下“4·25”这个事。围攻中南海这件事，我不是太清楚。就是在“4·24”的下午3点半钟的样子，我还在睡觉，李昌跟纪烈武到我家去了，坐下了以后，他拿出了一个材料，有4页纸的样子，他说老于你看一下。我看了看，前面是说“法轮功”如何如何的好，后面是反映天津抓人，给中央提了三条建议。我就跟李昌说，前面都可以，后面你这个建议写得太长，扯得太远了。他说，好好好，你改一改，我就当场搞笔给他改了一下，我改了一下就说，第一条意思就是说天津应该立即放人，要惩办肇事者，大概是这么个意思吧；第二条就是要允许《转法轮》这本书正常出版；第三条要给练功人一个宽松的修炼环境，练功环境，中心意思是这个，这个文字可能还要长一点。当时李昌也没有说这材料在什么场合用，后来，我有一次看到在电视里头，播放关于“4·25”事件真相的录像，里面就把这一段话作为跟中央谈判的条件打出来了。后面一看很短的，一条一条的，当时我就想，这三条是我的罪过在这地方。李昌呢他给我漏了这么一句话，明天要有一些人到府右街去，可能还有外地人来声援。既然是天津政府那地方，门口也都被人抓了，那只有向中央反映情况。他起来走的时候，他回过头跟我说，他说老于你不要动，你什么都不知道。4月27日，(学)院里头就是开会，传达文件呀、中央首长的指示呀，说是李洪志22号什么时候回来的，24号中午走的，在北京呆了44个小时，我听了以后我说这是瞎编的，李洪志回来我应该知道。后来，当纪烈武在电视里头一讲，他怎么接李洪志，怎么送李洪志，我才知道那家伙确实是李洪志回来了，确实是他策划的。刘英(四川乐山“法轮功”辅导站站长)，可能是5月8、9号，(从悉尼)回来到我家来，给我讲了一个事呢，她给李洪志说，“4·25”这天于教授没有到现场去，李洪志说我知道，我把他保护起来了。再有给我两样东西，一个就是在悉尼李洪志讲“法”的那个稿子，打印好的。再一个就是一个纸条，李洪志纸条写的就是：“坚修大法心不动，提高层次是根本，考验面前见真性，功成圆满佛道神”。看完以后，我就联想到这是对着“4·25”围攻中南海的，那么就说，他这是给 (叫)这些人不要泄气，叫练功人不要泄气，确立要继续修炼 (的决心)，修炼这个决心不要动摇的，坚修“大法”心不动，那么就说，你想为了要“圆满”，你就要继续修到底，这次就是一个考验，再有这种事，还要积极参加的。

　　我感到我直接接触的这三次围攻，这是李洪志从背后指挥，我感到他有点赤膊上阵的这种架式，他也是通过这个围攻，也显示一下他的实力，向政府施压，也是实现他的政治目的的一次预演。

　　第四个步骤，也是他最后的一个步骤，就是公开投靠西方反华势力，准备长期与中国政府对抗，与中国人民为敌。李洪志移巢美国以后，他经营美国“法轮功”辅导站是下了很大功夫的。叶浩就跟我讲过，李洪志亲自任命了一个女站长，这个女站长来过中国，我见过两次。他们内部矛盾很多，勾心斗角，有一些练功人就不买她的帐，所以它里面就分成了两派。李洪志为了调解这个矛盾，也就只好把美国这个辅导站一分为二，分为西部辅导站和东部辅导站。李洪志在国内干了许多坏事，从指挥攻击媒体，一直到一万多人围攻中南海，这一步步失败以后，只好在国外寻求“保护伞”，想依靠美国支持来颠覆我国政府。我从报纸和电视上看到，他三天两头往国内发经文，还利用了互联网进行指挥。这样他既可以保证自身安全，又能够控制国内，他想把“法轮功”练习者当炮灰使，当殉葬品。他还网罗了一些中华民族败类分子充当他的骨干，和台独、藏独、民运分子、民族分裂分子搅和在一起，一块充当西方反华势力的工具。他这样贼心不死，负隅顽抗，肯定是没有好下场的。

Yu Changxin talks about Li Hongzhi and Falun Gong

Yu Changxin was a backbone member of Falun Gong, who directly attended the organizing and planning of a lot of important activities of Falun Gong and kept a close relationship with Li Hongzhi. An interview with Yu Changxin on February 5, 2001 disclosed many real and concrete details and inside information. The personal narration of a senior Falun Gong member with such a special status and experiences - "nuncupative history" - was able to provide very important references for realizing and researching Falun Gong.

--Editor

Q: Recently, newspapers and televisions reported the Tian'anmen Square self-immolation incident of some "Falun Gong" obsessed members. Have you watched the reports?

Yu: I have watched all the reports.

Q: What's your feeling after watching these reports?

Yu: I feel these people were very miserable and the scene was tragic. I am so sinful when witnessing they stepped into the path without end and I feel sorry to the casualties and their family members.

I was a backbone member of "Falun Dafa Study Association". I had compiled 16 books such as "Zhuan Falun" and so on; two practicing stories and some materials of "Falun Gong" instigated and ordered by Li Hongzhi since October 1992. Moreover, I had attended the production of four audio and video materials. All of these things were to apotheosize Li Hongzhi and the heretical ideas of "Falun Gong". Actually Li Hongzhi held 13 classes in Beijing and 9 classes in Changchun, which were the majority of the 53 classes held in the whole country and there were few classes in other areas. If the average number of the participants of each class was two to three thousand, then there were 200 thousand in the whole country. However, the number of "Falun Gong" practitioners was several million in the whole country. Li Hongzhi traveled to 15 to 16 provinces, but there were "Falun Gong" organizations almost in every province. Therefore, "Falun Gong" practitioners in other provinces practiced "Falun Gong" through reading the books of Li Hongzhi and two stories and materials compiled by me, or through audio and video materials. Even some of the practitioners who attended Tian'anmen Square self-immolation incident practiced "Falun Gong" through reading books and watching videotapes. Therefore, I played a very bad role in the spreading of "Falun Gong" books and I played a role that Li Hongzhi cannot play. I feel very sinful. And I was upset when they charged Li Hongzhi and I was full of regret!

Before practicing this Gong, the life of my wife and me was not bad. Although we got illness, our life was happy and the government usually helped us. However, I ended up in prison from a man with happy life after 4.25. I will not forget this in my whole life, although there was no use to regret and there was no way to make up. The loss caused to our Party and county, and to the lives and properties of people was too great to be remedied. The dead people were miserable and I believed some of them didn't attend the classes, so it was due to my sins. The government and the court sentenced me an imprisonment of 15 years (oral error, actually it's 17 years), actually it will be 21 years, 17 years of imprison and 5 years of depriving political rights. As to the sentence, I said that I had realized my sins and I accepted any kind of sentences. I will not appeal and I will recast myself carefully and try to make up my sins in my rest life.

After more than a year's reeducation, I had completely realized the real appearance of Li Hongzhi and the reactive essence of "Falun Gong". Therefore I decided to make a thorough break with Li Hongzhi, the political swindler and break from "Falun Gong", which brought disasters to our country and people. I would like to stand out bravely and disclose the real appearance and reactive essence of Li Hongzhi and "Falun Gong" with my personal experiences so as to allow people to realize the reactive essence of "Falun Gong" and Li Hongzhi.

Q: As a backbone member of "Falun Dafa Studying Association", you had contacted with Li Hongzhi for many times and understood him better, what kind of person Li Hongzhi is in your opinion?

Yu: I had contacted with him by myself more than 20 times and we talked with each other. In my opinion, he is a dissembler, a political swindler and a man with political ambitions.

Q: You said Li Hongzhi was a dissembler; can you describe it in detail?

Yu: I feel Li Hongzhi was a very disingenuous person. Apparently he seemed like a gentleman when you got to know him. But he will become another person with further understanding. According to the saying of my hometown, he was "a man with two faces". That is to say, he was a man in the eye and a devil in the backside. Actually he never fulfilled his words. This characteristic was particularly apparent in the way he earned money. In his words and in the "Regulations for Tutorship Station", he said clearly that practitioners should not get involved with money and property. But he himself earns money as much as possible. What impressed me directly was the issue of publishing books. The original price of "Lections in America", the book published in Guangzhou was 5 yuan. After Li Hongzhi knew it, he said the price was too low and the prices for books published in the future should be higher. He said that publishing companies can earn money and he can earn a lot of money too. Therefore, when "Lections in America" was published the second time, he requested his follower, and asked the publishing company to set the price as 8 yuan. He also assumed the position of juridical deputy of "Hong Kong Falun Buddha Publishing Company. When he set up such a publishing company, it was difficult to publish some of his books in Mainland since some publishing companies won't publish books with blind faiths. Then he registered such a publishing company there and he assumed the juridical deputy. Later I raised my suggestion in front of some followers. I said the master should not assume the juridical deputy because the juridical deputy is boss. And Ji Wulie can assume the position. Others didn't say anything because they had heard my suggestion for several times. However, Li Hongzhi did not utter a word, and no one said it again. Now when I recall it, I realize that he just want to obtain the controlling power and control the money. And I should buy my own books with my money. Once I was in someone's home and Liu Guirong carried the books published in Hong Kong back. She handed over three books to me. I found the books are will printed and kept them, and I did not read them. After a while Liu Guirong came back and she said, Mr. Yu, the price of your books is 51 yuan and you can give me 50. I was a little surprised, but I still gave her 50 yuan. The reason why I was a little surprised was that I thought the books were presented to me, because Ji Wulie took the draft from me before the books were published. My feeling was that, as to earning money, Li Hongzhi refused to have anything to do with friends. The characteristic of dissembler of Li Hongzhi was obviously incarnated in the issue of earning money.

Q: You said Li Hongzhi is a swindler, could you give some examples?

Yu: I feel that Li Hongzhi was an absolute swindler. He had a series of pleading tactics and he can make use of some altisonant reasons to justify him and cover his deceiving techniques and behaviors. He said he can plant "Falun" in people's lower abdomen, which will keep turning all day long and can cure people's diseases and help them practice Gong. When someone asked him whether the "Falun" could kill the baby in the abdomen of pregnant women, Li Hongzhi answered that the "Falun" will not kill the baby. If it kills the baby, then it will snip the gut of normal people. He said the "Falun" is in your body of the other space. After he fabricated such heresy, people may believe in it since they cannot see or touch the "Falun". The other example was about the power of "Falun". He also cheated people and asked them to experience it. He said he cannot performance and people can only experience it. When he made the speech with Gong, he threw out a "Falun" and asked followers to experience it with their hands. I tried to receive it three times, but I didn't feel "Falun" turning in my hands. When I asked my wife, she didn't feel it turning either. When I asked acquaintances, they felt the same. Therefore, Li Hongzhi had no power as to the power of "Falun". However, he was able to fabricate a set of heretical theories and people felt no way to raise a question. I felt his deceiving technique was so excellent that it was not egregious of calling him a swindler.

At the beginning I believed in him. Later, I got a book named "Interpreting Mysteries in the World" and videotape named "The Source of Human Being", which was produced by American Academy of Sciences. Most of the pre-history culture in Li Hongzhi's speech was cribbed from them. He just took research of others as his own. He said there was a nuclear reactor in Gabon. In 1972, Gabon sold the uranium ore to France. As to the uranium ore, there were two stories, one said the content of uranium was very low, and the other said it came from the nuclear reactor constructed 2 billion years ago and had run for 500 thousand years. When Li Hongzhi told me the story, I felt this man may have real theurgy and he may come from pre-history. According to Darwin, the present human being has lasted no more than 10 thousand years, and in China the history is called 5 thousand or 7 thousand years. How Li Hongzhi got to know the nuclear reactor constructed 2 billion years ago and had run for 500 thousand years. At that time I felt he might have such kind of theurgy. But after I read this book, I found what he talked about was nipped from the book. And the history he talked about came from the videotape. He just nipped them and boasted to be his own.

--Editor

Q: You said that Li Hongzhi is a man with political ambition. Please give some examples

Yu: I think the whole passing Gong activities of Li Hongzhi had its political purpose. Firstly he set up organizations. Generally speaking, "Falun Gong" Studying Association is the highest level, which is directly controlled by Li Hongzhi. Then there are general tutor stations, tutor stations and practicing spots. And big tutor stations are divided into different parts. The organization composes altogether five levels.

As to the administrative organization of "Falun Gong", Li Hongzhi not only controlled Studying Association, but also controlled sub-stations and tutor stations. One head of a sub-station of Beijing raised a question in a meeting, but Li Hongzhi cannot answer and did not know what is going on with the question. At that time Li Hongzhi said, your mind is in chaos and I will not answer your question. Later Li Hongzhi asked the chief of Beijing station to replace the head. And he said the head was not competent for his duty. That is to say, Li Hongzhi will replace people who do not obey him.

Moreover, when we sent Li Hongzhi to America, he sent for the chief of Beijing station. The chief asked him for direction. Li Hongzhi said, you should not develop old men and women only, you should develop more young people, which will be beneficial to the further development of "Falun Gong". And this was the task of Beijing station, and it should develop young followers. In addition, Li Hongzhi also asked Beijing tutor station to set up some operational organizations, such as "Learning Fa Team of Old People" which is constituted with old cadres above deputy bureau level. This team had already been set up and I had attended one of its meetings. He also asked Beijing tutor station to set up a "Literature Activities Team", which was already set up; and a "Scientists Team", which was constituted by researchers, professors and a few graduate students. I was clear that Li Hongzhi's intention of setting up these teams was political and evil. Whenever he wanted to attack the Government, he can utilize these teams immediately.

Q: Any other detailed examples?

Yu: Li Hongzhi always said "Falun Gong" had no organization; actually it was not true. For example, besieging Beijing Television Station and media were pre-disposed and organized plans. I knew something about the besiegement against Beijing Television Station. The television station said that they would do nothing but broadcast a practicing scene of "Falun Gong"; they will not apologize or make corrections. When Li Hongzhi realized that his objective was not met, he was unsatisfied. I asked Li Chang what Li Hongzhi said. Li Chang said that Li Hongzhi asked him, "Lao Li, I told you every detailed thing but dispatching 10 thousand followers. And this thing was not converted without this single sentence. I asked Li Chang what's the meaning of being converted. He said that it was not asking Beijing Television Station to apologize; it was to force the government to admit the legal status of "Falun Gong". Another example was the book of "Zhuan Falun". After the book was run up, I called Li Hongzhi and told him that the book had been published and I had got some. He asked me to send him one and I went to his place by bus. At that time he lived in Dongdan and Liu Guirong was there. After I sent the book to him, he just browsed it quickly. Then he put the book on the end table in front of the sofa and said that this would be a bomb with great power. At that time I did not think it had political purpose, because Li Hongzhi claimed again and again that he will not attend politics, will not oppose the government and will not throw himself into the lap of hostile forces. However, when I think about this thing now, how the book of "Falun Gong" can be compared with a bomb? From the ambition of Li Hongzhi, the purpose of his "Zhuan Falun" was to bomb the government, which clearly showed his political ambitions and intentions.

Q: According to your understanding and experience, could you tell me why "Falun Gong" was able to bewitch so many people?

Yu: At first, when Li Hongzhi created "Falun Gong", it was very fraudulent. I think Li Hongzhi made full use of three "baits", and that was why so many people have been bewitched and "Falun Gong" had developed so many adherents. The first "bait" was "Curing illness and strengthening health", which catered for the psychology of some people with illness. Li Hongzhi said, after you entered into my class and believed in me, I will cure your illness and I can cure every kind of illness. You should come even you think your illness was very severe, and I promised there was no risk of life. That is to say, you can cure your illness without eating medicine, which was very attractive. Therefore, there were more and more people in his class. Moreover, at the beginning he cured illness at the same time he manages his classes. He said that it was to obtain fame. "Falun Gong" just came to Beijing and was not developed yet. So it was necessary to attract more and more people to understand and practice "Falun Gong". Then, there were more and more followers in his class. And there were even 4000 people in a class in the late period. At that time I got coronary heart disease, hypertension and chronic atrophic gastritis. Therefore when someone introduced the Gong of Li Hongzhi to me, I attended the first class. His lecture was so fantastic that I did not believe it, and I practiced Gong and took medicine at the same time. Later Li Hongzhi told us, if you practice Gong and took medicine at the same time, it meant you did not believe that "Falun Gong" could cure your illness. If you believed in it, you should stop your medicine and had a try. I promised there was no risk of life. Therefore I stopped my medicine. After the incident of 4.25, the government sent a doctor to make a check-up for me. My blood pressure was very high, from 180 to 200. And according to the cardiogram, my coronary heart disease was severe and the t wave was upset. Later they compared my illness with my case history. They told me, why you believe that "Falun Gong" can cure your illness. Your heart disease was more severe than before.

The situation of my wife was just the same. She was also an intellectual with highest title of a technical post, and also retired for illness. After getting illness, she was so anxious that she asked almost every doctor for help. It was heard that "Falun Gong" can cure illness, she began to practice it immediately and requested Li Hongzhi to cure her twice, but she was not recovered. Later when I sent books to Li Hongzhi, I brought my wife with me. Li Hongzhi told her that she did not get illness. Later he told me in particular that there was a huge dragon in her body, she will go to the heaven with the huge dragon after obtaining consummation. Actually he was cheating us. So my wife always felt sick. I compiled two books of practicing stories, and a lot of people began to practice "Falun Gong" after reading these two books. In the books there were some cases of curing illness and strengthening health, and I did not check them up. Actually, the illnesses of my wife and me were not cured. Therefore, Li Hongzhi's claim that "Falun Gong" can cure illness bewitched a lot of people.

Q: Li Hongzhi had three "baits", you just talked about the first one, what was the second?

Yu: The second bait of Li Hongzhi was "truthfulness, compassion, tolerance". At that time this trick was illusive. Most of people believed in truthfulness, compassion and tolerance. He just made use of people's psychology and cheated people to practice his Gong. He boasted that "truthfulness, compassion, tolerance" is the highest Buddhist Lection. He said Buddhist Lections are just like a pyramid and the highest point is the highway that can be summed up as "truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance". That is to say the only standard of adjusting whether you are a good man is "truthfulness, compassion, tolerance". He also made use of the frightful phenomena in the society, which people feel revolting against. Therefore he claimed that there were full of frightful phenomena in the society and only his "Falun Gong" was able to provide a pure land. Then he made use of the psychology of people to attract followers. He said "truthfulness, compassion, tolerance" he talked about is just in the Dafa and in "Zhuan Falun". Although "Zhuan Falun" has 300 thousand to 400 thousand words, it can be generalized as the three words of "truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance". So you will become a good man and will obtain a good future if you read his books. I think "truthfulness, compassion, tolerance" Li Hongzhi talked about is not true because his behaviors did not meet the standard of "truthfulness, compassion, tolerance". I can show this with his behaviors. For example, when he held class in Ha'erbin and after one class was over, followers just went back to where they lived. However, the illness of one follower broke out, and he died after sent to hospital. Later the body of the follower was carried to the class. But Li Hongzhi just ran away from the back door. Here he just showed his compassion. When people need your compassion, where were you? As to the issue of tolerance, I think he was nothing to do with tolerance according to my memory, actually he always be furious. The first time I saw him in anger was when "Gui Zhou QI Gong" criticized Falun Gong. Some others and I were there with him. After he answered a telephone call, he was so angry that his face turned red. He complained to himself and did not utter a word for a while. At that time I thought what the criticism was and why he felt so furious. Why not tolerate? And this was his teaching... Therefore "truthfulness, compassion, tolerance" he boasted was just to attract people and make preparation for opposing the government in the future. This was another bait of Li Hongzhi.

Q: Anything else?

Yu: The third "bait" is "eliminating sins" and "releasing people's soul", which is another way of Li Hongzhi to cheat people. He said people are reincarnated and the soul is eternal. If someone had "sins", there would be more "sins" in the next life. My wife and I began to practice "Falun Gong" just because we got illness. After hearing his words, I began to think whether my illness came from my preexistence. I was afraid that if I was reincarnated from a bad guy, I will suffer disasters if I don't eliminate the "sins". Then I believed in his words of "eliminating sins". Actually this is a fallacy. He said his Lections are the highest Buddhist Lections and he indicated he is the most powerful Buddha, higher than Sakyamuni and Jesus. I can help you "eliminate sins" no matter you listen to my lections or not, no matter you read "Zhuan Falun" or not. As to my "Zhuan Falun", every word in it is a "Falun". And every word is even my "Dharma Body". The "Falun" of mine can help you cure your illness and strengthen your health. He said it is "releasing people's soul". In the second half of his book of "Explanations on Falun Dafa", he said people will meet four catastrophes, the first is flood, the second is earthquake, the third is wars and the last is plague. He said the four catastrophes will wash out some bad guys. And the "truthfulness, compassion, tolerance" is the only standard of judging good and bad people, and it can help you to escape from the catastrophes. Although your "sins" are severe, Master can help you eliminate most of them if only you sincerely practice my "Falun Gong". However, the sins left will be too severe to pass away. Then I will decompose your "sins", so you can eliminate "sins" one by one. When you fell you are always in sick, it is actually a good thing because your sins are eliminated one by one. Now I know it was just a cheating trick. When I felt my illness did not get cured, he would say I still had "sins"! However, as a "Dafa" backbone member and who stayed with him for a long time, my "sins" still cannot be eliminated. And the sins of those station chiefs cannot be eliminated. Then how the sins of those who cannot see Li Hongzhi and those who spend less time in practicing can be eliminated? Therefore his eliminating sins" and "releasing people's soul" are just illusive tricks.

I think the influences of his three "baits" are very bad, which deceived millions of people to practice his Gong. All these people were hooked and cheated by the three "baits". Then he gradually enlarged his troops and tried to achieve his political goals. I feel that the three "baits" are grisly.

--Editor

Q: At present some people are still obsessed with "Falun Gong". In your opinion, why "Falun Gong" has such great controlling power?

Yu: In my opinion, the reason that some people, including me, are obsessed with "Falun Gong" and cannot break away from it is that Li Hongzhi has three "maledictions". Once a person is hooked up, he will try to control you. I think the most evil thing of "Falun Gong" is mental control.

I think the first "malediction" is "Regarding the Lections as Master". Li Hongzhi always paid special attention to this point and talked about it frequently. He said he will not pass Gong any more, and people who want to practice Gong should read his books. And people can get everything by reading his books. Moreover, he demanded followers not to read his books carefully. He said in a shot paper that some followers did not read and recite his books in the right way; they tried to understand the exact meaning of every sentence. He said if you read the books too carefully, you will get nothing. I understand his meaning. The meaning is that his books cannot be read carefully, not only the grammar, but also the contents. He taught followers an "exclusive method", which required followers not read any other books, in particular Qi Gong books. I think he may crib the contents of other books. If followers read other books, they would know. Once in a meeting held in Beijing tutor station, followers discussed how to learn "Dafa". They brought forward a slogan, Read "Dafa", Mend spirit and Practice movement. They thought it was not bad. Later I told them, how about to add one word in each phrase of the slogan and changed it to Read "Dafa" carefully, Mend spirit genuinely and Practice movement hardly. Then they cited the slogan in the experiences of followers and all of them thought it was good. However, after Li Hongzhi read the material, he interrogated me once I met with him. He asked me was it me who wrote the three phrases. I said it was me who wrote it, but I did not explain the process. He said that I was destroying his "Dafa". What the meaning of reading carefully? You should just read it and you should not try to understand the meaning. He said, all the lections monks read were translated from ancient Indian language, but they can practice Buddhism by reading those lections. Li Hongzhi tried to hook people with the "Regarding the Lections as Master". Otherwise, if he did not pass Gong, why "Falun Gong" can continue its development? This is a very important reason that these people are still obsessed with it. Li Hongzhi was lulling and controlling them. I think this is the content of "Regarding the Lections as Master".

Q: What is the second "malediction"?

Yu: I think his second "malediction" is "dharma-body protection". Li Hongzhi boasted that he has numerous "dharma-body" and he can protect all the followers even if the people of the entire world are practitioners of "Falun Gong". After followers are protected by his "dharma-body", they will not be disturbed by outside world and not be invaded. He also threatened that his "dharma-body" will know every thought of the follower. For example, his "dharma-body" will know that whether you go to besiege media or not and that is the reason that he knows some people didn't attend the besiegement. I once received a call; the person who called me said that he did not attend the besiegement. I told me that it is all right. But he said what if Master knows about this. I said Master will forgive you if he knows it. This example shows that he tightly controlled followers and all the followers were afraid of his control. Therefore, it means that you cannot obtain "consummation" if you don't besiege media, sign your name or go to the Tian'anmen Square and attend the self-immolation incident. The followers just thought that Master will know whether he attended or not, and I will not obtain "consummation" and my practice before will be in vain. In fact, it is the "dharma-body protection" which controls people. In another words, the psychological state of the followers is a little abnormal. So this malediction is very powerful. If the practitioners don't follower his directions, the "dharma-body" will know it and the practitioners will be punished.

Q: What is the third "malediction"?

Yu: I think the third "malediction" of Li Hongzhi is "the final consummation". He said "the final consummation" means that you become a Buddha and you can go to the heaven. In east, this is called Buddha; while in west it is called God. He said the world of Buddha is nice; you can get anything you want. And this is the merits and virtues of your practices. So if you cannot obtain consummation by practicing, you will be still in the "Six-way Metempsychosis" and you will become plants, animals or substance. Even if you can become a human being again, you will have your rough time and endure hardships again. So "consummation" is the eventual goal of practice. According to this idea, some people do want to "make great improvement" and "practice concretely", or their practices before will be in vain. Therefore some people do not care about their family and spent all the time on "learning Fa and practicing concretely". In order to obtain "consummation", some people pay no attention to family affection. Li Hongzhi said that going to Tian'anmen Square was the last step to "consummation". I think it was because that Li Hongzhi was in the dead end and he could not cheat people without this final trick. However, in order to obtain "consummation", some people do burn themselves. They do not care about their families and their own lives. All the followers died because of self-immolation, self-hanging, committing suicide, cutting belly, or jumping down just want to obtain "consummation". I think this trick is very venomous.

According to my personal experience, Li Hongzhi attracted people with the three "baits" firstly, and then he controlled these people with the three "maledictions". I am a typical example. I was just controlled by the "maledictions" and read "Zhuan Falun" without paying attention to outside world. I did not realize the reality until the incident of 4.25. After the incident my leaders talked with me for many times, but I was not repentant to my fault until I was censored separately. My leaders pointed out my mistake seriously and criticized me severely. At that time I began to be awakened to "Falun Gong". In particular, after I read a material disclosing "Falun Gong", I began to realize the real characteristics of Li Hongzhi and the essence of "Falun Gong" gradually. And by then I was able to break away from the mental control of the three "maledictions". After I broke away from the control, I felt relaxed and my life was good. According to my experience, to those who are very obsessed, they can not get away from the "maledictions" without the help of outside forces". They are afraid of the punishment if the "dharma body" of Li Hongzhi knows. So with the help of outside forces, they can break away from the three "maledictions" by reviewing the whole thing. It's more difficult to get out only by oneself. This is my personal opinion.

Q: What do want to talk to those practitioners who are still obsessed with "Falun Gong"?

Yu: In review of my experiences, those practitioners should awake as soon as possible, which will be beneficial to the people and the country. Now the real face of Li Hongzhi and "Falun Gong" has become well know. Colluding with "Democratic" activists, "Taiwan Independence" activists, "Tibet Independence" activists and national splitting activists, Li Hongzhi has become a political tool of western anti-China forces. Therefore, we should make a prompt decision and break from Li Hongzhi and "Falun Gong" completely. As a "Falun Gong" backbone member who was so obsessed, I can be repentant. I think those practitioners will be transformed. I believe they will be transformed soon under the guideline of "solidarity, education and retrieval". In particular, after watching the recent report of the self-immolation incident in Tian'anmen Square, they will understand the Cult essence of Li Hongzhi. And the people will forgive you; the country will welcome you if you are transformed. This is what I want to say.

--Editor

Q: In the conversation of last time, you concentrated on how Li Hongzhi cheated people and controlled people with "three maledictions". In your opinion, what was the purpose of Li Hongzhi?

Yu: After a year's education and help provided by leaders and governments of all levels, I believe the purpose of Li Hongzhi is to realize his political intention. The key question of him is the political intention and political ambition. And his ambition expanded from small to big and was uncovered step by step.

In my opinion, the original intention of Li Hongzhi was to earn some money and become famous. With the development of "Falun Gong", he wanted to be the head of Qi Gong circle. Then, he wanted to dominate Buddhist circle and become a spiritual leader. When "Falun Gong" was greatly developed and he was rich and powerful, he wanted to control the government and dominate everything.

There were several aspects in his way to become the head of Qi Gong circle. The first was to drive up himself and drive up the status of "Falun Gong". He said he has four kinds of power. He can not only "provide Falun", but also "open heave eyes". People would get rid of any kind of illness after entering into his class. He has the power to cure all diseases. He said he can cure the diseases of all the human beings in the world by just raising his hand. The other aspect was to debase other Qi Gong. He said his "Falun Gong" is the highest and most intensive Gong in the universe. And it is the most wonderful and remarkable science in the whole world. He said other Qi Gong masters are from lower levels and their Gong just comes from the ghost attached to their bodies. He said the ghost attached to a Qi Gong master is weasel, and his Gong is the Gong of weasel. And he also said there is a fox with a blinded eye bended over the other Qi Gong master and his Gong is the Gong of fox. All of those Gongs are crooked ones. By doing so he debased other Qi Gong. I also boasted for him at that time, boasted the power of Li Hongzhi and "Falun Gong". I told others that Li Hongzhi is not an ordinary Qi Gong master; he is "releasing the souls". And "Falun Gong" is different from other Qi Gong in the society; they are not on the same level. I wrote these praises in the appendix of "Zhuan Falun". Li Hongzhi agreed with my praises after reading them.

When Li Hongzhi found that there were more and more "Falun Gong" practitioners, he was not satisfied any more and he wanted to become a spiritual leader. Then he changed his birthday. I knew that in 1994, and he changed his birthday to April 8 of Chinese lunar calendar, which is the birthday of Sakyamuni. By doing so he indicated that he is the reincarnation of Sakyamuni. However, Li Hongzhi said later that he is higher than Sakyamuni. He said that he is the highest "lection" in the Buddhist lections, and even the "lections" of Sakyamuni are lower than his. He said that even Sakyamuni was just in his real world. And where the real world is? Li Hongzhi said that it is the peak of the material world, and he is in the world of "Falun", in the highest Buddhist world in the universe. This body of mine is sitting here and teaching you "lections", but this body is just made up. My real body is in the heaven and he is looking at me. If it is my real body who is teaching lections here, there will be a golden Buddha sitting there, and all the people, even those evil people will learn and listen to my "lections". In late 1996, an international communication meeting was held in the Ditan Park. Most of the contents of Li Hongzhi focused on the issue of the future Buddha. All the listeners understood his meaning at once. I remembered that someone asked me as soon as the meeting was over. He told me that he did not understand one sentence of Li Hongzhi before, but today he realized that Li Hongzhi is Buddha Maitreya. Because Sakyamuni used to say that Buddha Maitreya is his successor. According to the lection of Li Hongzhi, it was clear that he is the future Buddha Buddha Maitreya. Thus, he clearly stated that he is the powerful Buddha, dominator and protector of the universe. Since he said he is the most powerful Buddha, it seems reasonable that he becomes the spiritual leader.

In my memory it was in 1994 when Li Hongzhi went to take pictures in Chinese Picture-taking Shop with Liu Guirong, and he also called Lan Jianhua and me to go with him. He said that he wanted to take a picture for certification. After the certification picture was taken, Li Hongzhi asked Liu Guirong to bring his bag. And Liu Guirong handed a bag to Li Hongzhi. Then Li Hongzhi entered the dressing room and I didn't know the reason at that time. After Li Hongzhi got out of the dressing room, I saw him in cassock, the gown of monks. Then he sat cross-legged and took a few pictures. At that time I had a very clear feeling that his picture was as same as the Amitabha. Li Hongzhi thought, with the rapid development of "Falun Gong", he was very powerful and he was satisfied with spiritual leader anymore. He wanted to control the society. And that was why he indicated many times that he had a lot of reincarnations in the history. He used to be Li Shimin, Kangxi, Yue Fei and so on. Moreover, he was William XIV in England besides being the emperors of China. By doing so he just wanted to indicate that he can dominate the society. In his poem entitled "Visiting the Mausoleum of Qing Dynasty", there are following sentences: "Three hundred years just passed away, the old palaces and tombs are already dilapidated. However, the history will be repeated in present day, and the lections will last for ever". He clearly claimed that he is the reincarnation of emperor Kangxi, and he came to the present world again.

He always talked about the bad things about the government, the country and the society, such as demoralization, bad ethos, driving for money and so on. Some people dared to do anything for money and even the government cannot control. Only my "Falun Gong" provides a pure land. This meant that his "Falun Gong" is a pure land and he can control what the government cannot.

Moreover, we can understand his purpose form the books he read. After he went abroad, Li Guirong sent all the books he read and there were totally more than 20 sorts of books. These books can be divided to two categories, one was about religion, and the other was about the dominating skills of emperors, in which there was "Li Shimin's Skill of Ruling People". This indicated that once he becomes an emperor, he can make use of these dominating skills.

Q: You just said that Li Hongzhi had his political intentions and ambitions by making use of "Falun Gong". Could you tell me what kind of things he has done in order to realize his political intentions and ambitions, and how?

Yu: The first thing was the preparation of public opinions. Li Hongzhi made great efforts in it. He propagandized his heretical theories by any channels and any ways. Firstly, he held classes of Falun Gong; he had held more than 50 classes in more than a decade of provinces, cities and autonomous regions all over the country. However, the number of people who attended the classes was limited. In order to expand his forces, enlarge his influences and build public opinions, he prepared to publish books. Form March of 1994 to the end of 1998, he published 18 kinds of books. I edited some of the books and some others were not edited by me. But all these books were sent to publishing house by me. As far as I knew, the total number is 3.4 million. Moreover, I had attended the production of 4 kinds of audio and video productions and the total number is more that3 million. He said we should publish more books so as to expand influence in remote areas. A lot of people have no books to read and in some region more than ten people read one book. Later, in early July, 1996, General Administration of Press and Publication of China released an inner announcement of confiscating four books of "Falun Gong", then the publishing house didn't want to publish the four books anymore. Then Li Hongzhi said we should publish pirate books and we can print books in printing factories directly. He told me, Lao Yu, you can tell those who are in charge of printing books that they can print "pirates are allowable, boundless beneficence" on the back cover. This showed that Li Hongzhi didn't care about the national law in the issue of publishing books and made use of mean methods as much as possible. In addition, he produced some badges, including "Falun Badge", printed photos and wall maps and so on in order to inspire public opinions. I feel that one thing can explain his ambition. When the book of "Zhuan Falun" was firstly published, Li Hongzhi said it is a "bomb with great power". At that time I didn't regard it as a political issue since Li Hongzhi repeatedly said he would not be involved in politics. Now I realize that the reason that Li Hongzhi pay attention to this book was that he regarded this book as an important weapon of deceiving people, attracting followers and robbing mental position from the Party. In the process of inspiring public opinions, especially during the process of publishing books, audio and video productions, I actively engaged in it and I was the right hand of Li Hongzhi. Therefore I am really sinful since I helped Li Hongzhi propagandize his heretical theories. I realized that I have made a great damage to some people, the society and our country and some damages cannot be remedied. I think the only thing I should do is to remedy as much as possible in prison.

--Editor

Q: Just now you talked about the preparation on public opinions of Li Hongzhi, could you talk about the preparations on other aspects?

Yu: Li Hongzhi also paid special attention to the aspect of organizations. When he held class in a place, he would set up the organization there before the class was over. The class I attended was held in Zhen Zhou. At that day he called us together. There were about six to seven people. He asked us to make preparation for setting up a tutor station in Zhen Zhou. And he just appointed us to do this thing. And he appointed one of us as the charge of the preparation. He paid special attention to this aspect and it was just the same in Beijing. Wang Zhiwen once told me that general stations were set up in the cities where Li Hongzhi held classes, and stations in other cities were called tutor stations. The highest level was "Studying Association", then general station, tutor station, sub-tutor station and practicing point. So the power of "Studying Association" was great, it not only had organizations, but also moved fast. And its power was granted by Li Hongzhi. Li Hongzhi said in the book of "Meaning Explanation" and in classes that practitioners should follow the provisions and directions of "Studying Association" because I approve them. Even when I was not there, "Studying Association" reported everything to me by fax or telephone. The directions, after my revision, were sent back and then transmitted to you. So you should follow the directions of "Studying Association". Therefore "Studying Association" was very powerful and practitioners will attach the directions to Li Hongzhi. So it was very efficient. When Li Hongzhi had some directions, he will release lections. After he wrote his directions, he gave it to Ji Liewu personally or faxed to his home. Since Wang Xiaoyan, the wife of Li Liewu can type; she typed it and sent to the 38 stations all over the country. Or they faxed to some main stations such as Changchun, Dalian, Jinan, Wuhan, Guangzhou and so on. Another way was telephone. Then the directions of Li Hongzhi were spread quickly. The spreading time would be less than two days.

After organizations of every level were established, Li Hongzhi set up a set of regulations. He drafted a requirement for general station of "Falun Dafa", criterion for tutors and notice for practitioners in person. Except these regulations there was a "constitution". This "constitution" was drafted out in the first book "Chinese Falun Gong", which was drafted by me according to the model Li Chang gave me. Later, Li Hongzhi told me that the book should be revised and the "constitution" should be removed. Now I realize the reason was that Li Hongzhi was afraid to expose his political intention. Since he claimed that there were no organizations, there should be no "constitutions". At present, although the "constitution" was removed, it actually exists and "Falun Gong" is run according to the "constitution".

As to the development of organization, Li Hongzhi attached special importance to young people. Li Hongzhi said that "Dafa" should be come down for ever, which can not realized only by old people. Young people should be the successors. Since his thought was passed to all the tutor stations all over the county, the tutor stations also attached importance to developing young people, even students. And it not only included college students, but also included high school and primary school students, even students in kindergartens. I once watched a photo in which a few five or six years old lovely children practiced Gong cross legged, which showed that they had practiced for a long time. This is the development status. Moreover, I watched a kinescope of one communication meeting in Dalian at the home of Wang Zhiwen, in which a mother held a three years old child in her arms, and the mother asked the child to recite a paragraph of lection. Since his "Dafa" should be come down for ever, there should be young successors. From this I want to say, if the government didn't ban "Falun Gong", the political ambition of Li Hongzhi will be out of control.

The other form was the base for developing backup forces. He thought the base should have two tasks. One was to train some backbone members, such as chief of station. And the other task of the base was to teach "Falun Gong" to foreigners. And foreigners who wanted to learn "Falun Gong" should learn it in the base. Someone suggested a place in Huailai county of Hebei province, just in the north of Guanting reservoir. He checked it up with some members of "Studying Association". But after a while he said he wouldn't establish the base near Beijing. I think Li Hongzhi was not voluntary. In his heart, he didn't want to give up the base. And the reason was that he was compelled by the political situation at that time. In June 1996, "Guang Ming Daily" published a criticizing article against "Falun Gong", which was the first attack towards "Falun Gong". The article said "Zhuan Falun" was blind faith and heretical theories, and people should be alarmed against it. Then in July, General Administration of Press and Publication of China began to confiscate 4 books of "Falun Gong". I found that Li Hongzhi was a very sensitive man. He realized that the government was noticing him and the base should not be set up.

The third was the preparation of property. In this aspect Li Hongzhi accumulated money from many channels. Originally, the channels included holding classes, curing illness, selling material. Later the channels included publishing books, audio and video publications, and wall maps. Since 1996 he transferred the issue of publishing books and materials to Wuhan Shenshen Company. As far as I knew, he earned five to six million yuan by selling books in the Mainland China. In addition, he registered a "Falun Buddha Lections Publishing Company" in Hong Kong. One part of the books published there was transported to Mainland and the other part was transport Southeastern Asia. Moreover, this "Falun Buddha Lections Publishing Company" was in charge of signing contract with foreign buyers and paying author's remuneration to Li Hongzhi. He gained some money from this channel. In my opinion, his purpose of accumulating money was to achieve his political intention abroad.

The fourth was the preparation of throwing himself into the lap of hostile forces. He claimed that he will not pass Gong in China from the end of 1994. And after the last class held in Guangzhou he will not pass Gong in China. He thought that the force of "Falun Gong" was already stable with the development of practicing points. And the chiefs were reliable. Therefore he wanted to develop "Falun Gong" in foreign countries. In March 1995 he went abroad. The focus of him was America. He thought he will have a base in foreign county even "Falun Gong" will be intervened or even cancelled by the government. Every time after passing Gong, he set up a tutor station, which was his base. Therefore Li Hongzhi took a fancy to America and decided to go to America later. I said he was moving his nest to America. In the spring or summer of 1996, Li Chang told me that Master wanted to pass the procedure of going abroad, and he needed recommendations of five to six famous people. He said since I was a professor, I was a famous man, and then I should recommend him. I needed to do nothing but write my name in the blank letter pad with the name of a college, and I should not write the date. I did it according to the direction of Li Chang, and I provided my help for the escape of Li Hongzhi.

--Editor

Q: You just said that the political ambition of Li Hongzhi was expanded gradually, and he made a lot of preparations. According to your understanding, could you tell me how he put his political intentions to practice?

Yu: In my memory, the process of organizing "Falun Gong" can be divided into four steps. The first step was to "pass Gong and promote Fa" and to expand its forces. And there were five forms. The first form was to pass Gong between friends and relatives. For example, I was introduced by one of my friends that Li Hongzhi would hold class in the night of June 25, you may go and listen to it since his class is different with other classes, then I attended the class. This form regarded one person as a center and diffused "Falun Gong" from it. The second form was to increase practicing points, for example, at that time there was no practicing point in Zhong Shan Park in Beijing, and then he redeployed some follower in a practicing point in Xicheng District to Zhong Shan Park. Moreover, he appointed a follower to propagandize the characteristics of "Falun Gong" and one tutor to explain "Falun Gong" there. Through this practicing point he tried to influence the neighboring areas and continued to expand "Falun Gong". The third form was the large-scale practice of thousands of followers. This form was able to attract some people, but it also contained political elements. And he also wanted to teach a lesson to media by showing that "Falun Gong" was able to call hundreds responds. If media dared to criticize, I can call more people to besiege you. The second meaning of this form was to bring pressure to the central government. Since there were so many "Falun Gong" practitioners, it was not reasonable that "Falun Gong" cannot register. So the large-scale practice of thousands of followers was a form come into being after the criticism of media. It was developed with the changes of situation and it contained political elements. The fourth form was to hold classes in remote areas by utilizing the audio and video productions of Li Hongzhi. The procedures and methods of this kind of class was the same with the form of holding class in other areas by Li Hongzhi personally. Actually they were classed held in the way of Li Hongzhi without his presence. The fifth form was communication meeting, in simple words, "Fahui". Someone will tell you that he has a ticket and you may go and listen to it. By this way those who didn't practice "Falun Gong" just went to the meeting. Li Hongzhi himself finally confirmed these five forms.

The second step of Li Hongzhi was to figure for legal status by writing to the central government. "Falun Gong Studying Association" was firstly put forward in March of 1996. At that time Li Hongzhi claimed to quit (Qi Gong Research Association of China). By the end of December, Qi Gong Research Association issued a formal document that it did not allow "Falun Gong" to register. Then from the January of 1997, in the direction of Li Hongzhi, Ye Hao and Li Chang tried to find a superior department. The purpose of Li Hongzhi was to break away from Qi Gong Research Association and its control. At that time the central government had a Qi Gong leading team composed by nine people, he (Li Hongzhi) always said the nine people team did not support Qi Gong and they were just preventing the emergence of Yi Hetuan. I felt Li Hongzhi had a guilty conscience at that time. Then Li Chang drafted the first letter to The United Front Work Department of CPC Central Committee with the purpose of registering an association, and the name was "Falun Buddhism Association". At the end of September of 1997, seemed like September 27, The United Front Work Department of CPC Central Committee replied the application of "Falun Gong". In my memory, two sentences of the replying document impressed my most, one was that they did not support and approve the registration of "Falun Buddhism Association", the other was that they should be alert and prevent "Falun Gong" from developing to Cult.

At July or August, General Administration of Press and Publication of China released a document like "Situation Reflection", which reflected the seamy side of "Falun Gong". They managed to get this document and I once saw a copy of it. Since this document influenced the registration, they decided to write letter to Premier Zhu and President Jiang and accused General Administration of Press and Publication of China. They said that the document of General Administration of Press and Publication of China was not true and deceived leaders of central government. In fact, they were calling white black. I attended the drafting process and I put forward a suggestion. I said why not adding one point that it was the "Guang Ming Daily" and General Administration of Press and Publication of China who firstly criticized "Falun Gong" and caused media all over the country began to criticize "Falun Gong", their influences were bad. And Li Chang also put forward a suggestion, he said this time it should be more than a petition signed by several people, this letter should be written in the name of old cadres' team. Therefore, they held a meeting of old cadres' team, which was claimed to be "Studying Fa Communication Meeting" to the outside world, and several people made speeches in the meeting. Then Li Hongzhi rushed into the meeting with Liu Guirong and Ji Liewu. Li Hongzhi introduced the situation of passing Gong in foreign countries and the situation of domestic development. And then he asked what kind of problems we shall raise, and after that Li Hongzhi went out. After reading the letter to the leaders of central government, these old cadres signed it. I realized the purpose of Li Hongzhi at that time, he didn't want to talk about the issue or answer any questions there. His purpose was to encourage these old cadres to accuse General Administration of Press and Publication of China collectively. This was the second letter.

The third letter was written in August or September, Li Chang called me to the house of Ye Hao at Bai Shi Bridge. When I went there, there were already six to seven man of Beijing station, and some people were from "Studying Association". Li Chang held a paper in his hand and said that he received a telephone from a county in Xinjiang. The man who called him said that the first Bureau of Public Security Department issued a No. 555 notice, which announced to restrict the activities of "Falun Gong". Li Chang said we may make use of the form of last letter and write to the premier, and all of us agreed. Later we had a discussion and decided to divide the letter into the main content and appendix. When we discussed about the main content, we felt the letter of Liu Shuren (drafter) was not bad. I added two sentences, I suggested that the reason that the policeman of grass roots dared to act wildly against law and public opinion was that the announcement of Public Security Department. And the action of the policeman had a bad influence. They thought this sentence was good and then put it in the letter. Li Chang suggested that the second letter was signed by about twenty people, why not to hand in a letter signed by hundreds of people, which will be more powerful and convincible. All of us agreed and we collected hundreds of signatures. Those who came from "Studying Association" and Beijing Station knew clearly there were some people died and some people were psychologically disordered. I knew two cases, one died in Jinan and the other died in the class of Ha Erbin. However, we quibblingly blamed others without referring to these deaths and made use of every method to accuse Public Security Department, this was calling white black. I felt we were very abominable by writing these two letters. And my two suggestions were also very bad.

The fourth letter was written to chairman Li Ruihuan. One day at the end of that year, Li Chang told me that Chen Xingqiao, a chief officer of Buddhism Association wrote a book entitled "Buddhist Qi Gong and Falun Gong", in which he criticized "Falun Gong". Li Chang said the Buddhism Association was under the leadership of CPPCC, so we decided to write a letter to chairman Li Ruihuan and accused Buddhism Association.

After returning from foreign country, Li Hongzhi read the letter to The United Front Work Department of CPC Central Committee and the letter accusing Administration of Press and Publication. He read them at the home of Li Chang. He said these letters were well written and were powerful, in particular the letter accusing Administration of Press and Publication. Why Li Hongzhi said it was powerful, because he was furious that "Guang Ming Daily" firstly criticized "Falun Gong". He then called to Li Chang from Southeastern Asia and asked him to organize followers to write letters to it ("Guang Ming Daily"), or to write letters to Administration of Press and Publication. Then they organized the issue all over the country. I heard that the letters to "Guang Ming Daily" were so many that they filled two big bags. From then on Li Hongzhi pushed all the followers to the front line of realizing his political purposes. In succession, Li Hongzhi wrote a "Great Exposal", which criticized some people who dared not to besiege media. Now I feel that the "Great Exposal" was actually a mobilization order. He just wanted to check out whether his followers will follow his directions or not and whether followers will follow him at the crucial moment. He told the followers who dared not to go out, what were you afraid of? Some follower's words were very good, they said their body will continue to sit cross-legged even they are beheaded. After the release of "Great Exposal", some practitioners felt very repentant, they were repentant of not writing letters or not besieging media. And they were very active in the later activities against media. For example, a practitioner in Beijing called me. He asked me whether it will influence his "consummation" since he didn't attend the besiegement. The influence of "Great Exposal" of Li Hongzhi was very bad, and this method was very acrimonious and his intention was malicious. From then on, from 1988 (oral mistake, actually 1998), in the second half year particularly, the "Studying Association" did not study "the theory and method of Gong" any more, however, it focused on how to deal with media and the government.

The third step was besiegement and public demonstration. Li Hongzhi told Li Chang, if soft actions didn't work and writing letters didn't work, then we should be hardliners. We can sent people there, sent people to talk with them. As to the besiegement, the number of participants was greater and greater and the scales were also larger and larger. It's influences were so bad that it was just like a cancer, had become a constant force that influence the stabilization of the society. As far as I knew, the typical besiegement included besiegement against Qi Lu Wanbao, Beijing Television Station and Central Government.

Firstly let me talk about the besiegement against Qi Lu Wanbao. I heard about it from Wang Zhiwen. He said they had come there for many times, but there were not many participants. At the beginning there were only several followers, later ten, and at last twenty to thirty followers. And it became a stalemate.

The chief of Jinan Station wrote a material and mailed to the newspaper, and he also released it to fellow practitioners. One day he gave three copies to Wang Zhiwen, and Li Xiaomei gave it to me when she passed my home one day. She told me to have a look. In the material there was a sentence that he said the criticism of newspaper had its active aspect. I felt uncomfortable at the first time I read it. I thought, if the thousands of newspapers all over the country criticized "Falun Gong" together and you still thought it had active aspect, then "Falun Gong" would be brought down. Then I wrote "this is capitulation" above the sentence. After reading it, Ji Nan station's pressure was so great that later Zhang Shouqiang organized eight to nine hundred people to besiege Qi Lu Wanbao and forced the newspaper to apologize. As to the besiegement, I played a very bad role.

Another besiegement was against Beijing Television Station. Before that besiegement I had attended three meetings. The first meeting was held in May 27 and 28, in which we discussed the present situation that Beijing Television Station attacked "Falun Gong" in the "Express Train" program and He Zuoxiu attacked "Falun Gong, we wanted to argue with them. I didn't make speech at that time, but I agreed with it. Then they continued to find followers. In June 1, Li Chang called me to a meeting, the participants included heads of Beijing Station, and Ji Liewu was there too. Li Chang said this time we should organize more people, and tutor stations near to Beijing Television Station should send more practitioners. If the television station wants to negotiate, you can be representatives, and you can also find representatives on the spot. About a week later, the third meeting was held in old cadres' activity room of Guang Qumen hospital. I felt it was a conclusion meeting about the besiegement against BTV. Tang Xuehua run the meeting and almost all the members of "Studying Association" were there. Later Li Chang told me that Li Hongzhi was not satisfied with the incident. At that time Li Hongzhi was in Europe, and then I asked what he said. Li Chang said he had talked with Li Hongzhi for a long time. Li Hongzhi said, Lao Li , I told you everything but one sentence, I didn't make it clear that you should organize ten thousand people, and then the case was not reversed. I asked Li Chang what was the meaning of being reversed, was apologize not enough, or we should ask them to publish an announcement in newspaper. He said it was not the case. The meaning of not reversed was that they didn't reach the purpose of forcing the central government to admit the legal existence of "Falun Gong". After returning China, Li Hongzhi wrote a short article entitled "Digging Roots", in which Li Hongzhi was impolite. His "Digging Roots" said those practitioners who didn't go were wrong and you should dig their roots in their thought. You didn't practice "Fa" well and your level was too low and you were far away from "consummation". Form then on, practitioners all over the country were agitated. Those who didn't besiege television station will not lose such kind of chance when they got information. At that time "Health Digest" also published the problems of "Falun Gong", so practitioners continued to besiege the newspaper and they said they cannot lose the chance. The purpose of "Digging Roots" of Li Hongzhi was to instigate practitioners to die for the intention of Li Hongzhi.

I'd like to talk about the 4.25 incident. As to the incident of besiegement against Zhong'nanhai, I was not very clear. In the afternoon of April 24, I was still asleep. Li Chang and Ji Liewu came to my home. They brought out a material of about 4 pages. He asked me to have a look. The first half of the material boasted the advantages of "Falun Gong", and the second half reflected the situation of arrests in Tianjin. It put forward three suggestions to the central government. I told Li Chang that the first half was fine, but the suggestions were too long and far away from the point. Then he asked to revise it. I revised it on the spot. After my revision, the first meaning was that Tianjin should release practitioners immediately and punish the peace breaker, the second meaning was that the government should permit the normal publish of "Zhuan Falun", and the third meaning was that the government should provide a free practicing environment for practitioners. At that time Li Chang didn't tell me what's the usage of the material. Later when I watched the kinescope of 4.25 incident in TV, my three meanings were put forward as the negotiating condition with the central government. At that time I thought the three meanings were my sins. At that time Li Chang just told me some practitioners will go to Fu You Street tomorrow, and some practitioners from other provinces will come to express supports. Since the arrests took place in Tianjin, the only way was to reflect the situation to the central government. When he left my home, he told me to do nothing and pretend to know nothing. In April 27, my college held a meeting and transmitted documents and the direction of national leaders. They said Li Hongzhi went back in 22 and left in the noon of 24, he had stayed in Beijing for 44 hours. I thought it was not true, I should know it if Li Hongzhi came back. Later, Ji Liewu introduced the procedure of receiving and sending Li Hongzhi, and it was not until then I realized that Li Hongzhi just came back and the incident was plotted by him. In May 8 or 9, Liu Ying (the chief of "Falun Gong" tutor station in Le Shan, Si Chuan province went to my house after returning from Sydney. She said she asked Li Hongzhi why Professor Yu didn't go to the scene of 4.25 incidents. Li Hongzhi said he knew this and he just wanted to protect me. She also gave me two things. One was the well printed draft of Li Hongzhi's lections in Sydney. The other was scrip in which Li Hongzhi wrote: "Believing in Dafa and never changing your belief, promoting level is the basic matter; real nature will be exposed before tests, becoming Buddha or God after consummation". After reading this, I connected it with the besiegement against Zhong'nanhai in April 25. It called practitioners not to give up and continue their belief of practicing "Dafa". If you wanted to obtain "consummation", you should continue your practice. This time will be a test, you should always actively attend such kind of tests.

The three sieges I directly contacted were directed by Li Hongzhi in behind. I felt it was just like fighting barefacedly. He just wanted to show his power through the sieges and produce pressure to the government. And they were also a preview of realizing his political intentions.

The fourth and the last step of him was to throw himself into the lap of western anti-Chinese forces and prepare to fight with Chinese government and Chinese people for ever. After moving the base to America, Li Hongzhi paid great efforts on the management of American "Falun Gong" tutor station. Ye Hao told me that Li Hongzhi appointed a female station master personally. This female station master came to China twice and I met with her twice. They had a lot of inner contradictions and some practitioners didn't follow her directions. So they were divided to two groups. In order to mediate the contradictions, Li Hongzhi had to divide the American tutor station into two stations, that is, the western and eastern tutor stations. Li Hongzhi committed a lot of bad things in China, from directing the attacks against media to organizing more than ten thousand practitioners to besiege Zhong'nanhai. After all these things failed, he had to seek "shelter" in foreign countries and wanted to overthrow Chinese government with the support of American government. I got to know that he delivered lections back to China from time to time and direct practitioners through Internet. By doing so can he not only guarantees his own safety, but also controls domestic practitioners. He just wanted to utilize "Falun Gong" practitioners as victims buried with the dead. Moreover, he gathered some degenerated Chinese people as his backbone, colluded with Taiwan Independence activists, Tibet Independence activists, and democratic activists and splitting activists, and served as the tools of western anti-Chinese forces. Although he put up a desperate struggle, he was determined to fail.

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