解说：一个医院被诬蔑为法轮功学员集中营。
（张旭）：说我们医院是个集中营，大概收容了几千名法轮功人员，然后搞活体器官移植活体摘除
解说：数位医生被诬蔑曾经摘取法轮功学员活体器官。
（于三江：）我一个普普通通的外科医生,给我编造这个不符合实际的传说,我也非常纳闷。
解说：太离奇太荒唐的谣言是如何编造的。
子墨：2006年的7月6日，两名加拿大人大卫乔高和大卫麦塔斯，发布了一份独立调查报告，指控中共摘取法轮功学员的器官。而后在2007年的1月31日,他们又发布了调查报告的修订版，这份报告暴露了一个足以让全世界都震惊的消息，那就是在中国有大量法轮功学员的器官被非法摘取，用来做器官移植手术，那么真相到底是什么？
（大卫麦塔斯）同期：我们将要着手写第二版报告，与第一版中18项反正不同的是、这一份报告我们将有25或者26，甚至27项更多的方式去证明和反证。
解说：大卫麦塔斯，加拿大人权律师；大卫乔高，曾任加拿大国会议员检察官。2006年7月，两位大卫经过两个月的调查首次发表了一份所谓中国活摘法轮功学员器官的报告。2007年1月，又发布修订版，称他们获取足够证据，证明中国政府大量非法关押法轮功学员，并进行活体器官摘取，以用做器官移植手术，医院借此获得暴利，报告被翻译成九种文字，两位大卫在亚洲欧洲澳洲北美洲等15个国家及多个国际场合大肆宣扬这份报告。对中国的器官移植体系大肆诬蔑，造成了极坏的影响。
（中国国家卫生部新闻发言人）毛群安：
我们感觉到非常地气愤，应该说这个事情它的影响，特别是在对境外公众的影响就超出了器官移植这项技术本身，而是对整个我们国家对我们政府是一种蓄意的攻击。
解说：两位大卫在报告中称，化名安妮的女士说她的外科医生丈夫在两年的时间里亲自从大约2000名被麻醉的法轮功犯人身上切除了眼角膜。并说这些眼角膜捐献者的其他器官被其他的外科医生摘取，事后身体被全部焚毁，他们所指控的地点在中国沈阳市苏家屯医院。
解说：辽宁省沈阳市苏家屯区位于沈阳之南，距离城区大约20分钟车程，苏家屯区共有4家医院，是沈阳市医院比较集中的地方，某些海外媒体在屡次指控中都只是措辞模糊地用了苏家屯医院这样一个概括的指代，法轮功相关网站关于苏家屯医院指控中所附的照片是在辽宁省脑血栓中西医治疗中心拍摄的，让人感到诧异的是，备受指责的摘取法轮功学员活体器官的医院，竟然是以治疗血栓病为特色的专科医院。我们到来的这一天，医院副院长张玉琴在门诊坐诊。
子墨：海外的这份调查报告一直指责是你们的外科的医生在从一些法轮功学员的身上进行活体的器官的摘除，这个外科的规模在这有多大？
（辽宁脑血栓中西医结合治疗中心副院长）张玉琴：
外科，我们就是一个小的诊室，另外还有一个处置室，这个处置室只能做一些简单的小的处置。比如说哪碰破了，哪个地方出血了，我们简单的处理一下。
子墨：外科一共有多少名医生？
张玉琴：10多名医生
子墨：那像器官摘除的话，院里面虽然从来没有进行过按您所说，但是具备这样的能力吗？
张玉琴：我们没有这个能力进行器官摘除的手术，没有这个能力，也没有这个设备。
解说：苏家屯整个医院只有300张床位，医院的最大容纳量为600余人。
张旭是苏家屯医院新闻发言人，他认为流传在海外的所谓苏家屯法轮功集中营事件完全是无稽之谈。
（辽宁脑血栓中西医结合治疗中心新闻发言人）张旭：
每一条都是谎言编造的。我们医院在建院，1988年建院之前是一个农民居住的一个菜地，种菜的这地方，是从来都是有居民区的。那么建成医院到现在，我们一直生活在这里的，而且这所医院每天要接待国内外大量的患者，它就在居民区内，前后左右都是交通要道，如果他说的这种情况存在的话，不用他来去报道了，马上全国最起码来说我们就能知道。不用他来去揭露了，所以这个事情根本就是无稽之谈。
解说：这是苏家屯医院住院楼。在两位大卫的报告推出之前，法轮大法明慧网就指证说，这所医院藏匿了6000多名法轮功学员，其中2000多人被进行活体器官摘取后焚烧。网站还登出焚尸炉照片，但这幅照片中所谓的焚尸炉事实上是这家医院的锅炉房。
子墨：您在这锅炉房工作多长时间了？
（锅炉房工作人员）：我是91年来的，现在工作已经16年了。
子墨：每天都负责一些什么样的工作呢？
“我们每天，这是两吨锅炉，我们这主要是生产中西医制剂浆洗房洗洗衣服还有食堂供气，还有供应室消毒。”
子墨：在2003年前后，那段时间您感觉这个锅炉房有没有一些异常？
“没有什么太异常的，”
子墨：比如说有没有焚烧过一些其他的东西？
锅炉房工作人员：那是没有过的。
解说：这是一间普通的锅炉房。锅炉房前后都是窗户，旁边小区距离锅炉房不过十一二米远，居民站在家中就可以透过窗户清楚地看到锅炉房的活动。除了一大一小两扇门，锅炉房也没有和外界连接的通道。
张旭：他网上登的我们那个锅炉房的照片我不知道您注意没注意，他的这个角度拍摄，实际上是在居民区里拍摄，在锅炉房的上面就是我们的居民楼，老百姓每天晾衣服生活都在这里头，往下一瞅，这个医院发生的任何事情都能看到。就锅炉房这个位置看得一清二楚，我不知道这个情况怎么保密。
解说：按照常识，如果苏家屯医院确实曾经藏匿过6000多名法轮功学员，那么这些人的吃穿如何解决。
子墨：所以我们想了解一下，在那段时间，您有没有接到过一些任务，要为这样一个庞大的人群来提供更多的后勤供应？
（辽宁脑血栓中西医结合治疗中心总务科科长）戚其德：
因为我在这个医院，从建院到现在就在医院，这个我们正常的供应，就是水的供应电的供应气的供应氧气的供应和洗衣服，吃饭的供应，就是这个其他的没有。
子墨：假设有6000人在你们医院内部的话，那后勤供应方面，需要做什么样的准备，大概有多少人要为他们服务，资金投入方面需要多少？
戚其德：假如说要有的话，最起码得有栖息的地方，得有呆的地方。现在这呆的地方，我们这个院子就容纳不了。第二个它这有6000人，最起码也得有五六千人为他们服务，我们没有那么多人，我们一共才600人，哪有那么多人？
解说：苏家屯医院藏匿法轮功学员的谣言，在大纪元网站出现之后，美国领事馆工作人员以患者身份，到苏家屯医院咨询器官移植手术问题，进行暗访调查没有发现问题。
2006年3月21日，领事馆又派驻沈阳领事柯道雷先生进行访问调查，他们一行五人对苏家屯医院的病房行政办公楼医疗设备甚至堆放杂物的小仓库都进行了详细检查，也没有发现任何问题。
子墨：美国领事馆的领事是在这里调查了多长的时间？
张旭：他是分两次来调查的，我讲时间嘛，第一次是法轮功炒作，集中炒作我们是3月18号，我记忆中是3月18号。那么3月22号，沈阳领事馆的柯道雷先生，就以这个到医院访问这么一个名义来我们医院参观，当时是我接待的，我陪同他在我们医院大致转了转。大约参观了能有一个多小时，这是第一次。那么第二次，我们新闻发布会以后，美国的这个领事馆通过外交部想到我们医院来考察，那么这一次考察时间有五个小时，应该说是一次比较彻底的访问，我们向他详细地介绍了医院各个地方的设施以及一些用途，而且还向他介绍了我们医院所开展的医疗项目的详细情况，包括手术的情况，包括一些原始记录。
子墨：他在调查过程当中没有发现任何异常吗？
张旭：应该说没有发现任何异常。
解说：2006年4月12日，美联社发布消息，美国驻华大使馆女发言人称，根据他们目前获得的信息，这个地方在功能上只是一家医院。
解说：2006年3月31日大纪元网站上一个署名，沈阳军区老军医的人说，苏家屯医院2005年初曾经关押超过一万人，2006年日常的关押人数只保持在600至750人，很多已经被转移至其他集中营，还具体的描述用的是专列和铁路货车，转移5000人只需一天时间。苏家屯医院紧邻一个十字路口，门前的这条公路因为通向沈哈高速路，来往车辆络绎不绝，该医院紧邻雪松路和桂花街，周边有银行社区学校体育场，在这个范围内没有大片空地，要实现大规模的人口转移不可能悄无声息，为此我们也决定向附近的居民来印证一下。
子墨：我们就是想询问一下这家医院你有没有发现他们有没有一些大批的陌生人员的往来没有？
“没有”
子墨：从来没有发现过？
“没有根本就没有发现过，这家医院比较正规。”
子墨：2002年2003年的时候，你也在这附近？
“咱们都在这儿干呢，都已经有七八年了”
子墨：有没有看到过几千人大批量的进进出出？
“没有，那绝对没有！”
病人家属：俺家老公公 老婆婆去年和今年净在这里住院了，给俺们说的都直害怕，我说这不不可能的事儿啊，就是说脑血栓，又什么买器官，又说有个地下室，那是不可能的，一听就是谎言。
子墨：但是这份报告指出说，消息被泄露之后是在一夜之间转移了所有的病人，而且是原来的这个房间也都消失了。
张旭：你想他说的6000名法轮功人员，包括他所说的，什么焚尸炉也好，还是其他设施也好，一夜之间就能转移得了，这个让人很难相信，这些人员往哪转移？更重要的是，我刚才跟您讲，这个周边地区，是老百姓生活居住的密集区，它不可能无声无息。这么大的事情怎么可能无声无息就消失掉了呢？所以说我说，这是纯属造谣。任何一个头脑理智的、有一定识别能力的、有理解能力的正常思维的人，到这所医院来参观看一下，实地考察一下，就会发现一切都是谎言。
解说：2007年6月1日大纪元网站又发布谣言，称一位正在申请韩国国籍的金先生向他们透露，说苏家屯医院外科医生于海山就专门从事法轮功学员的器官摘取手术。我们在苏家屯医院找到了唯一一位于姓医生，他叫于三江。于医生认为，大纪元的造谣和他2007年5月在医院值班时接到的一个咨询电话有关。
子墨：今年6月1号，海外又有一些网站发布了关于苏家屯医院的消息，指责一位姓于的外科医生在退休之后，被反聘到这里，专门从事摘除活体器官的这样的手术，而且是从法轮功学员的身上。我想这位于姓的外科医生指的可能就是您？
（辽宁脑血栓中西医结合治疗中心肿瘤外科医生）于三江：
我在5月中旬接到了一个外线电话，她首先这么说，她说我找一名叫于海山的大夫，他从沈阳退休过来的，手术做得不错。我说你说错了，我不叫于海山，我说我叫于三江，我从辽宁省总医院退休过来的。她说我向你咨询一个事，她说听说你能做肾移植嘛。我说这是不对的，和我的专业不相符合的。
解说：于三江是肿瘤外科医生，并不具备做肾移植手术的专业技能，但是这个电话却始终在纠缠肾移植的问题。
子墨：接到这个电话之后您感觉到奇怪吗？
于三江：我感到非常奇怪，这个女的，她用探询我的口吻，这个女的她是一个南方口音，我估计她的年龄在40岁到50岁之间。
子墨：在您告诉她您不能够做肾移植的手术之后，她怎么说？
于三江：她还是在纠缠，她说听说你能做，还反复强调尿毒症怎么治疗，肾移植的事情，我把电话撂了，我不接待她了。
子墨：您从来没有做过器官移植的手术吗？
于三江：我从来没有做。搞肿瘤的没有做器官移植的，特别是搞大肠胃，没有做器官移植的。而且在我们整个苏家屯地区据我所知道，这几所医院当中没有一家能够做肾移植的。
解说：于医生不懂得做肾移植手术，那个在大纪元网站上自称是他朋友的金先生到底是谁呢？
子墨：您有没有一位姓金的朝鲜族的朋友？
于三江：我没有。
子墨：因为海外的这份报道当中说是一位金姓的朝鲜族男子在韩国披露的，他是您的朋友，您在苏家屯医院就专门从事器官摘除的手术。
于三江：我没有。因为我回到家乡这五年多，因为我是汉族汉族人接触得比较多。
解说：整份报告中只有唯一的一份人证，就是自称苏家屯医院一位外科医生妻子的所谓安妮女士。那么这个安妮女士究竟是什么人呢？
子墨：除了对地点的指证之外，报告当中还提供了一个人证，也就是一位名字叫做安妮的女士。她说她的前夫是这里的外科医生，她的前夫曾经亲口对她说过，在两年的时间之内，为2000名法轮功的学员摘除过眼角膜，这给她的家庭带来了痛苦。
张旭：关于这个所谓安妮这个证人，第一，我们医院压根就没有这个人，根本就没有这个人。第二，从她自己的说法来说已经前后有很大的矛盾。她说这个人是脑外科医生，竟然去摘除眼角膜，稍微懂点医学常识的人都会了解脑外科医生去摘眼角膜手术，根本就是，这个专业上就是个错误的。再有一个，她原来她说我自己是这所医院的一个员工，我们压根都没有这样一个人。
子墨：安妮的话就一点可信之处都没有吗？
张旭：我可以负责任地告诉你，真诚地告诉你，没有一句实在的话，没有一句是真话。
解说：在网站关于苏家屯医院藏匿法轮功学员活体摘除器官并焚尸灭迹的谣言传出之后，2006年3月31日，日本NHK 大公报等4家媒体前往苏家屯医院进行实地调查和采访。4月12日，苏家屯医院新闻发言人又在北京举行了新闻发布会，华盛顿邮报法新社等12家媒体参加。
张旭：这种采访，我们都公开地事无巨细暴露无遗，我们大胆公开真诚地向他们展示我们这所医院，因为我们没有任何心虚的事，可以随便看。
子墨：您认为的负责的报道当中有海外媒体吗？
张旭：应该说我们上次新闻发布会上这13家这个包括路透社，华盛顿邮报吧应该是吧，都把我们新闻发布会的内容实事求是地做了报道。这也是去年自从新闻发布会以来，法轮功宣传我们医院越来越少几乎到没有也是这么一个因素。因为真相大白以后就没有人再信谎言也就没有市场了。
毛群安：海外媒体呢在谈到这个报告的时候呢，记者本身他们认为这是不可信的。他们关注中国的器官移植这项技术的开展，但是他们认为法轮功的这个谎言不可信。为什么呢？因为苏家屯的事件让他们感觉到，法轮功组织它是出于一种政治的目的来利用了医学技术上的这样一个发展编造的确这样一个谎言。
解说：两位大卫撰写的报告大量引用的所谓证据来自他们雇人做的电话采访，据说这份报告以雇人打电话的方式调查了全国上百家医院，报告特别对广西民族医院卢医生的电话调查记录非常详尽。报告说这位医生承认他早些时候曾到监狱挑选三十多岁的健康法轮功人员来提供器官，于是我们赶赴广西。
我们拿着报告来到广西民族医院。医院位于南宁市的繁华区，属三级甲等综合性医院，但并不具备器官移植器官摘取手术的资质，在医院泌尿科诊室我们找到了卢医生，他是一名主治医师。
（广西民族医院泌尿科医生）卢国平：２００６年5月份的时候，在值班的时候，接到一个，大概50岁左右的女性的操北方口音的，她电话里面说她家里有一个亲戚患尿毒症非常急，想尽早做一些肾移植手术，问我能不能在我们医院进行手术，我明确告诉她我们医院没办法进行这种手术，我建议她到广州的器官移植中心去那边去联系一下。
解说：卢国平1999年进入广西民族医院工作，2004年升为主治医师，2005年到广州某上级医院进修。
卢国平：她问我那边是不是用的是法轮功的那些器官，我告诉她我说我并没有参与这方面的手术，不知道他们器官是怎么来的，这方面我没办法回答她。她又问我是不是这些这个器官是不是到什么监狱里面去拿或者是什么，我明确告诉她说没那么回事。
解说：报告中还绘声绘色地说卢国平医生曾建议打电话的人到广州去拿器官，那边器官很容易拿，还说他曾到监狱挑选健康法轮功学员供体，卢国平对于这些电话录音记录表示吃惊。
卢国平：这个录音的内容和当时不相符，好多东西已经被篡改过了。最明显的两个问题，就是第一个，他在这个报告里面说，你们以前用的法轮功供体是从监狱里面还是从看守所里面拿的，它里面说我的回答是从监狱里面拿的，但是当时我的回答并不是这样的，我的回答是我们医院没有这种资质，我本人也没有这种资质，所以不可能拿任何器官。还有第二个问题是他说那你们都要到监狱里面自己去挑选吗？他当时说我的回答是对，肯定说要去挑选的，这个问题当初根本都没有问到，没有那回事。
解说：报告称他们的电话采访涉及上百家医院，其中调查员M就给八十多家医院打过电话，调查员N给近四十家医院打过电话。我们在苏家屯和在广西对于当事人的采访都证明这样的电话记录不具备真实性。
解说：两位大卫的调查报告以大量错误百出的所谓电话采访为依据得出一个荒唐的推论，这个推论认为1999年以后中国的器官移植数量突然增长，而中国在1999年又恰恰发生了法轮功事件，因此增加的器官移植手术供体必然来自于法轮功学员，这一推论不仅仅在逻辑上是错误的，而且用以推论的数字基础也是编造的309医院石炳毅教授的话。
309医院又称解放军总医院第二附属医院，中国人民解放军全军器官移植中心就设在这里，石炳毅是这里的主任，也兼任中华医学会器官移植分会常务副主任，在中国器官移植领域是权威专家。
子墨：最近我们是看到了一份由加拿大的两个独立调查员所做的报告，当中呢引述了您的话，说中国截止到2005年一共进行过九万宗的器官移植手术，那其中从2000年到2005年呢，也就是说所谓的他们说的法轮功在受迫害之后，曾经是有六万宗的手术，也就是说数量有一个大幅的增长。不知道您是在一种什么样的情况下是不是曾经说过这样的话？
（中华医学会器官移植分会常务副主任）石炳毅：我没有说过这样的话。为什么？因为我头脑里就没有这样的数字，我没有过非常详细的调查，哪一个时间点是多少例，我没有这样的数字，所以我也不可能说。
子墨：虽然您没有透露过具体的数字，但是这份报告所指出的这些数字它们属实吗？
石炳毅：我觉得没有属实的地方。很多都是我看这上写的都打电话问问这个医院是多少那个医院是多少，以患者家属的名义去调查这件事情。
子墨：那您自己在看过了这一份独立调查报告当中，有没有对报告当中摘用的您说的这些数字进行过澄清呢？
石炳毅：有过的，因为我是军人，所以我只能通过合法的渠道，我写出抗议，通过卫生行政管理部门总后勤部卫生部，转交给国家卫生部，我说我没有说过这样的话。
子墨：那有没有对一些海外的媒体进行过澄清？
石炳毅：有过的。有一次BBC电话采访了我，我就告诉他我没说过这些话。
解说：石炳毅表示上个世纪末以来，中国器官移植确实出现了数量的增长，但这与法轮功事件无关。
子墨：我们怎么理解说中国的器官移植手术在这些年会出现这么大幅的增长呢？
石炳毅：这个增长是和一个情况有直接关系的，不是因为我们现在供体增加了，而是因为我们的有能力的医生增加了，医学科学进步了。最近这几年从美国的匹兹堡，从英国回来的学者访问学者回来以后，回国内开展器官移植工作，从器官移植不管从临床还是科研的方面都大大进步了，实际上其他国家也是这样，也是这几年发展比较快，整个器官移植从国际上，第一例器官移植，临床器官移植开始到现在也才只有半个世纪时间。
子墨：那么供体的问题在出现了大幅的手术数量增长的情况下是怎么解决的？
石炳毅：供体短缺的问题应该是没法解决的，这个缺口是永远存在的。不管是我们中国这样其他国家也是这样。
子墨：这份报告当中还提到其他的一些数字，比如说在中国一些医院的网站上打出了相关的广告说在中国等待供体可能只需要两个星期的时间，但是在其他的一些国家可能等待的时间，通常要达到一年之久，这种差异怎么样来解释？
石炳毅：那我可以告诉你，在我们医院我们现在有等四年的等三年的，等一年以上的在我们医院绝对会超过200人。
解说：在苏家屯被海外媒体指控为法轮功集中营后，中国公安部门卫生部门等多级机构都分别对医院进行突击检查，没有发现问题。随后对外召开新闻发布会澄清事实两位大卫的报告修订版出台之后，卫生部再次以秘密和公开的方式对所有线索进行调查。
子墨：我们有没有任何的证据能够证明在中国从来没有发生过针对法轮功学员的活体器官移植的事件？
毛群安：你说到这个事我想起来在我们防控禽流感疫情的时候法轮功组织在境外也造了这么一个谣，本来我们在辽宁发现有一例病人感染了禽流感，那么他造谣说有数十人，有名有姓的人感染禽流感并且死亡，那我们进行公安部门协助进行调查，这些人要么不存在这个人，要么这个人还健康的生存着，但是呢被法轮功组织列为已经死于禽流感的名单上，我们也看到这个报道我们也在想如果说法轮功的这个组织，他能够提供出非常详细的名单，就像我刚才举的防控禽流感过程中这样的事件，那么我们可以及时地给他揭露，给他以证实。那么现在这个报告中讲到有这么大规模的活体器官移植这么一个情况，但是整个报告里面就没有能够给我们一个机会来证实，说这个人比如说他遇到这样的事情，那么我们可以证实他或者说他在这个报告的同时能够让这个人向世人证实有这样的情况，但很遗憾，在整个报告里面我们找不到这样的线索。
子墨：在对器官移植进行规范和管理的过程中，您认为现在中国除了医疗技术本身的提升之外，还有哪些地方是最急需改善的？
毛群安：器官移植呢这是项新的医疗技术，应该说国际国内都非常关注。就这个问题呢，我也接受过许多记者的采访。境外的媒体和一些记者呢，也对我们国家要进一步规范我们国家的器官移植这项技术呢也善意地提出了意见和建议，我们认为这是非常客观。因为在这项技术开展过程中我们有很多的医疗机构医务人员参与了，那么它又是项新的技术，大家急于开展那么我们要规范，这二者之间本身是不矛盾，但是呢法轮功组织呢，利用这么一个机会编造了这样一个谎言我认为随着境外的公众对我们国家医学的发展 社会发展的了解，这个谎言必将不攻自破。
字幕：2006年7月1日，《人体器官移植技术临床应用管理暂行规定》开始实施2007年5月1日报表《人体器官移植条例》开始实施
解说：通观报告全文，两位大卫所使用的证据不外乎三类：一是所谓的证人证言如安妮的话石炳毅的话以及被篡改的电话录音；第二类为从网上下载的资料；第三类就是一些包含着可能据说应该如果等词汇的含混的逻辑推理，如两位调查员会从中国是一个人权状况较差的社会就推出法轮功学员器官被活体摘取是应该存在的，从政府减少了医院的财政拨款，就推论出医院会摘取用法轮功学员活体器官进行盈利。但对苏家屯医院广西民族医院以及石炳毅的求证都证实了不仅这些推理本身不符合逻辑，而且连推论的前提都是错误的，三类证据没有一个是值得信任，经得起推敲和考证的。
子墨：我们在互联网上发现，在这份报告的调查员之一自称是人权律师的大卫麦塔斯是赖昌星的辩护律师，而两个从来没到过中国大陆的大卫在台湾还曾经受到过吕秀莲的热情接待，此外他们还曾经在很多的国际会议上大力的宣传这份报告，要求各国政府和运动员抵制2008年的北京奥运会，然而令人遗憾的是，我们的实地走访并没有发现任何的事实是和这份报告当中所叙述的内容相符合的。那么一位是高薪的律师，另外一位是加拿大曾经的政府官员，他们为什么会做出这样一份错误百出的调查报告，他们又抱有怎样目的呢？
Phoenix TV: Davids' report reexamined
Narrator: A hospital was discredited as a concentration camp for Falun Gong practitioners.
Zhang Xu (spokeman of Sujiatun hospital, which is formally called Liaoning Thrombus Treatment Center of Integrated Chinese & Western Medicine): It says that our hospital is the concentration camp, housing thousands of Falun Gong practitioners from whom the living body organs have been harvested.
Narrator: A couple of doctors were slanderously accused of removing living organs.
Yu Sanjiang (cerebral surgeon of Sujiatun hospital): I am but an ordinary physician. I'm wondering why they fabricated the stories on me.
Narrator: How did the ridiculous rumor come into being?
Zimo (anchor of phoenix TV): On June 6, 2006, two Canadians, David Kilgour and David Mattas published an independent survey in which the Communist China was indicted to remove alive the organs of Falun Gong practitioners. And its revised version on January 31, 2007 even shocked the whole world that organs of a large number of Falun Gong practitioners were illegally removed alive for transplant surgeries. What is the truth on earth?
David Mattas: We're going to work out the second version. Rather than 18 items of disproof, 25 or 26, even 27 methods are to be used for proof and disproof.
Narrator: David Mattas, a Canadian human rights lawyer. David Kilgour, a former Canada Congressional prosecutor. Two-month investigations gave birth to the so-called report of China harvesting organs alive in July 2006. On publication of its revised version in Jan. 2007, they claimed to have enough evidences that the Chinese government illegally detained large numbers of Falun Gong practitioners and removed their organs alive for transplantation, the hospital had made huge profits. The report was translated into 9 languages. Two Davids advertise the report loudly in 15 Asian, European and North American countries and on many international occasions, they smear at China`s organ transplantation system and have made a very bad impact on China.
Mao Qun'an (spokesman of the Ministry of Health of the State): We are very angry. The impact of this report, especially on the public abroad, is very bad and it's beyond the field of organ transplantation technology. It's definitely a premeditated attack towards our country and our government.
Narrator: According to Davids' report, Miss Anne (anonym) said that her husband, a surgeon, had cut the cornea of almost 2,000 dopey Falun Gong practitioners within two years. And other organs of those cornea donators were removed by other physicians, and their bodies were finally burnt. The place they accused is Sujiatun hospital, in the city of Shenyang, Liaoning Province,China.
Narrator: Sujiatun district is located in the south suburb of Shenyang, Liaoning Province, about 20 minutes' drive from the city. There are four hospitals in Sujiatun district where hospitals are comparatively centralized. Certain oversea media have indicted that hospital for several times by mentioning it vaguely as Sujiatun hospital. Related Falun Gong websites show the picture of the accused hospital as Liaoning Thrumbus Treatment Center of Integrated Chinese & Western Medicine. It is surprised that the hospital condemned of removing living organ of Falun Gong practitioners is actually a special hospital curing cerebral thrombosis. Vice president of the hospital, Zhang Yuqin, happened to work in the clinic when we arrived.
Zimo: The overseas report continuously censures that the physicians of your hospital removing living organs from Falun Gong practitioners. How big is your surgical department?
Zhang Yuqin (Vice president of Liaoning Thrombus Treatment Center of Integrtated Chinese & Western Medicine): The surgical department is simply a small ward and we have a treatment room in addition. We can only supply simple treatment in the treatment room, such as handling simple wound and stopping bleeding.
Zimo: How many surgeons are there in all?
Zhang Yuqin: Just a little more than ten.
Zimo: You told us that your hospital never did the things mentioned in the report. But is your hospital capable of removing living organs?
Zhang Yuqin: We do not have the ability to remove organs and we have no such equipments either.
Narrator: There are merely 300 beds for patients in this Sujiatun hospital and the maximum capability of the hospital is 600 patients.
Zhang Xu, the spokesman of Sujiatun hospital, considers that the so-called Sujiatun concentration camp for Falun Gong practitioner is a sheer nonsense.
Zhang Xu (spokesman of Sujiatun hospital): Every single sentence is fabricated. Our hospital was founded in 1988 and before that the place was a vegetable garden, so there are many residents living around it. We have been here since the hospital was founded. It situates right in the residential area with many traffic roads nearby, and takes in large amount of domestic and foreign patients everyday. If what the report says is true, then the two Canadians would have no chance to be the first to report the event, since the whole nation at least the staff of our hospital like us would know it first. Therefore, the so-called event is a sheer nonsense.
Narrator: This is the inpatient department of the Sujiatun hospital. Before two Davids' report, the website of Falun Gong Minghui.org pointed out that this hospital hided more than 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners and 2,000 of them were set on fire after being removed living organs. The website even published the cinerator, which was actually the boiler room of the hospital.
Zimo: How long have you been working here?
Worker (in the boiler room): I came to work in the boiler room since 1991, so 16 years in all.
Zimo: What's your daily work?
Worker: This is a two-ton boiler. We mainly manufacture pharmaceutical preparation of Chinese and western medicine, supply hot water for the laundry and steam for the kitchen and dining-room, and so on.
Zimo: Around the year 2003, did you sense anything abnormal in this boiler room?
Worker: Nothing abnormal.
Zimo: For exemple,was there any other thing being burnt?
Worker: Definitely no.
Narrator: This is merely an ordinary boiler room. There are glass windows both in front and back of the room and the residential area is about only ten meters away. So a resident could see the activity clearly through the glass windows of the boiler room just from his house. Besides, the boiler room has only two doors connecting the outside.
Zhang Xu: I don't know whether you have noticed or not the picture on Minghui.org which was actually shot from the nearby residential area. The residential building is right above the boiler room, so the residents could see anything in the room when they dry their clothes in the sun. Under such a circumstance, I don't know how to keep any secret.
Narrator: According to common sense, if Sujiatun hospital indeed hided more than 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners, then how to solve the problem of their daily lives?
Zimo: So we want to know during that period, did you receive any assignment to supply logistical support to such a large number of people?
Qi Qide (Section chief of adminstration of Sujiatun hospital) : I have been working here ever since the hospital was founded. The regular supply of this hospital is to provide water, electricity, heating, oxygen, laundry and meal, and nothing else.
Zimo: Suppose there are 6,000 people staying in your hospital, what kind of preparation work do you have to support the logistics? How much money and how many people are needed to serve them?
Qi Qide: Provided that there are 6,000 people, first of all we have to ensure the accommodation. But we do not have enough rooms for so many people to stay in our hospital. Besides, we need at least 5,000 to 6,000 people to serve them. We only have 600 staff in our hospital, then where can we get so many workers serving them?
Narrator: After the scandal of Sujiatun hospital hiding Falun Gong practitioner appearing in Epoch Times, the working personnel of American Consulate-General in Shenyang pretending to be a patient came to Sujiatun hospital to consult the organ removing operation, and failed to dig out any problem.
On March 21, 2006, the Consulate sent Mr. David Kombluth, the consul of Shenyang, to investigate Sujiatun hospital again. The five-people group examined carefully the sickroom, office building, medical equipment and even the utility room storing sundries, yet failed to find anything abnormal.
Zimo: How long did the American consul's investigation last?
Zhang Xu: He came here twice. The first time he came was when Falun Gong was hyping up the news, if I am correct it`s probablly on 18 March. On 22 March, Mr. David Kombluth, the US consul, in the name of visitation, came to our hospital . I received him and showed him around, and it took about one hour. The second time he came was after our government had held the news conference. The American Consulate-General tried to seek help from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs to investigate in our hospital. This investigation lasted five hours and it was a comprehensive interview. We introduced in detail the equipment in each part of our hospital and their functions, and we also explained particularly the medical treatment projects, including the operation and some original records.
Zimo: Did he find any abnormity in the process of investigation?
Zhang Xu: No.
Narrator: On April 12, 2006, the AP released news. The spokeswoman of the American Embassy in China announced that according to the current information they had collected, Sujiatun hospital was simply a hospital functionally.
Narrator: On March 31, 2006, a person whose name was signed in Epoch Times as a retired military surgeon of Shenyang military Rigion, said that Sujiatun hospital once detained more than 10,000 people in early 2005. He also said that in 2006 the daily detained people are 600 to 750 and many of them had been transferred to other concentration camps. He even described in detail that they were transferred by special trains and lorries, and it needed only one day to transfer 5,000 people. Sujiatun hospital is very close to a crossroad which leads to Shenyang-Haerbin expressway, so there are many vehicles coming and going. It is also next to Xuesong Road and Guihua Street and it's surrounded by bank, community school and stadium, there is no large empty space in the surroundings. Therefore, it is impossible to transfer so many people in such a busy area without being noticed. We are going to interview the nearby residents to see what happened.
Zimo: We just want to know did you see large number of strangers coming and going out of the hospital.
Residents: No.
Zimo: Never?
Residents: No, not at all. This hospital is very regular.
Zimo: Did you live around here in 2002 to 2003?
Residents: Yes. We have been here for 7 to 8 years.
Zimo: Did you see thousands of people coming and going out of the hospital?
Residents: Absolutely no.
A patient's relative: My parents-in-law had been in hospital since last year. We are scared by the scandal. I think it's impossible. It's a special hospital for treating cerebral thrombosis, then how can there exist organ business? Some even say there is a basement. It's ridiculous. Sheer nonsense.
Zimo: But the report indicated that all the patients had been transferred and the previous rooms disappeared just in one night ever since the news was revealed.
Zhang Xu: The report said that 6,000 Falun Gong practitioners, along with the incinerator and other equipment were displaced just in one night. It's unbeleivable. Where could such a large number of people go? What's more important is what I told you just now, this is a busy residential area and transferring so many people, it could not be achieved without being noticed. That's why I'm sure that it's nothing but a rumor. Any sane person who has common sense and is capable of thinking normally would know that it's lying as long as he comes to visit the hospital just for once.
Narrator: On June 1, 2007, Epoch Times spreaded rumor again. It said that Mr. King who was applying for Korea nationality disclosed that a surgeon named Yu Haishan of Sujiatun hospital was specialized in organ transplanting operation on Falun Gong practitioners. We came to the hospital and found the only doctor whose surname was Yu (Yu Sanjiang). Doctor Yu thought that the rumor was related with a consultation call he had answered when he was on duty in hospital in May 2007.
Zimo: On June 1 this year, some oversea websites released the news about Sujiatun hospital. They censured that a retired surgeon whose surname was Yu was hired to Sujiatun hospital and performed living organ transplanting operation on Falun Gong practitioners. I guess the Doctor Yu might mean you?
Yu Sanjiang (Surgeon of Liaoning Trombus Treatment Center of Integrated Chinese & Western Medicine): I answered a phone call in mid May(The caller is a woman). She said first that she was looking for Doctor Yu Haishan, a good surgeon retiring from Shenyang. I told her that she got the wrong person and I was Yu Sanjiang, not Yu Haishan, I had retired from General Hospital of Liaoning Province. She then said that she heard I could perform kidney transplanting operation. I denied and told her that was not my major.
Narrator: Yu Sanjiang is a surgeon of tumor, not capable of performing kidney transplanting operation, but the woman on the phone kept on the issue of kidney transplantation.
Zimo: Did you feel strange when you answered the phone?
Yu Sanjiang: Yes, I felt very strange. It was a woman who had southern accent, probably around 40 to 50 years old. She talked as if she was trying to sound out something.
Zimo: What did she say after you told her that you could not perform a kidney transplanting operation?
Yu Sanjiang: She kept on talking and said that she heard I could do it, and repeated several times how to cure uremia and mentioned kidney transplant. I hung up the phone and then stopped explaining anything.
Zimo: You have never performed any organ transplanting operation?
Yu Sanjiang: No, never. No doctors specialized in tumor could perform organ transplanting operation, especially for the doctors specialized in alimentary canal. As far as I know, there is no hospital is capable of performing kidney transplanting operation in the entire Sujiatun area.
Narrator: Since Doctor Yu cannot perform kidney transplanting operation, then who on earth was Mr. King declaring himself to be Doctor Yu's friend in Epoch Times website?
Zimo: Do you have a friend whose surname is King and is Korean nationality?
Yu Sanjiang: No, I haven't.
Zimo: Since the oversea report said that a man of Korean nationality, with his surname King, revealed in South Korea that he was your friend, and he suggested that you were specialized in organ transplanting operation in Sujiatun hospital.
Yu Sanjiang: No, I am not. I have been back to my hometown for more than five years and I contact more people of Han nationality for I myself am a Han nationality man.
Narrator: The only testimony of witness in the entire report was such a so-called lady Anne who declared herself the wife of a surgeon in Sujiatun hospital. Then who was lady Anne on earth?
Zimo: Along with the evidence of location of the accused hospital, the report provided a testimony of witness who is Lady Anne. She said that her ex-husband was a surgeon of Sujiatun hospital and he told her that he had removed cornea of 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners in two years, bring about great suffering to her family.
Zhang Xu: I want to say something about the so-called testimony of witness, Anne. First of all, there is no such a person in our hospital at all. Second, what she said was full of contradictions. She said that her husband was a brain surgeon, then how could he perform cornea removal operation? If you know a little about medicine you would know it's absolutely impossible. What's more, she said she was a staff member of this hospital, but it's not true.
Zimo: What Anne said is totally unreliable?
Zhang Xu: I can tell you honestly and I am responsible for what I am saying that not even a tiny word of what Anne said is true.
Narrator: After the rumors appearing in Minghui.org and Epoch Times websites, which said that Sujiatun hospital had detained secretly Falun Gong practitioners, removing their living organ and burning their corpses to eliminate the vestiges, on 31 March, 2006, the journalists of four Media including Japanese NHK and Hongkong`s "Public Daily" went to Sujiatun hospital for on-the-spot investigation and interview. On 12 April, the spokesman of Sujiatun hospital gave a news conference in Beijing and 12 Media, including Washington Post and AFP and so on, attended the conference.
Zhang Xu: Since we are not guilty of anything, we explain everything in detail in the interview and show them around in our hospital.
Zimo: Do you think there were any conscientious reports from oversea media?
Zhang Xu: I should say that all the 13 Media which attended the last news conference, including Reuters and Washington Post, have made the news reports objectively and veritably. That's also the reason why Falun Gong accused our hospital less and less since the last-year`s news conference, as whenever the truth came out, there was no room for deceit to exist.
Mao Qunan: Mentioning the report, the foreign journalists themselves didn't believe what it said. They paid more attention on the development of organ transplantation techniques in China and considered the report unreliable. Why? Because Sujiatun event led them to believe that it was Falun Gong organization that took advantage of medical development and fabricated such a story just for certain political motive.
Narrator: A large amount of the evidence in two Davids' report was actually quoted from telephone interviews pretended by the people they hired and it was said that hundreds of hospitals in China were interviewed. The report especially mentioned in detail the interview of Doctor Lu in Guangxi Nationality Hospital. It said that the doctor had admitted he once went to a prison to pick out healthy Falun Gong practitioners around 30 years-old to provide organs. So we came to Guangxi.
We came to Guangxi Nationality Hospital with the report. The hospital locates in a busy area of Nanning (the pronvicial capital) and it is a general hospital of Level Ⅲ Grade A, which is not capable of performing organ transplanting or removal operation. We found Doctor Lu in the consulting room of Urological Department. He is a physician-in-charge.
Lu Guoping (Doctor from Urological Department of Guangxi Nationality Hospital): In May 2006 when I was on duty in the hospital, I got a phone call from a woman who had northern accent and was about 50 years old. She said that one of her relatives suffered from uremia and it was very urgent. She wanted to receive kidney transplanting operation as soon as possible and asked if our hospital could do it. I clearly answered her question that we were not able to do the operation and suggested her going to Guangzhou organ transplanting center.
Narrator: Lu Guoping came to work in Guangxi Nationality Hospital in 1999. He was promoted to a physician in charge in 2004 and went to a superior hospital in Guangzhou to attend in a advanced studies in 2005.
Lu Guoping: She kept on asking me if the hospital used the Falun Gong practitioners' organs. I told her I didn't perform such kind of operation and had no idea of where the organ came from. She then asked if the organ came from some prison or something like that. I told her positively that it was impossible.
Narrator: Two Davids`report even described vividly that doctor Lu once suggested the woman to fetch organ from Guangzhou and told her it was easier to get organ there. He even said that he used to pick out healthy Falun Gong practitioners' organs in prison. Hearing this, Lu Guoping was astonished at these telephone record.
Lu Guoping: The content of the record was not what I said at that time, and a lot of things had been altered. There were two obvious problems. First, the report said that when I was asked if I previously fetched the organs of Falun Gong practitioners from prisons or detention houses, this report said my answer was from prison. But it was not my answer at all. I actually told her that neither our hospital nor I could transplant organs, so there was no need for us to fetch organ at all. Second, the report said that when the woman asked me if I had to pick up organs in prison by myself, I gave a positive answer. But the fact was no such a question had been mentioned. It was all faked.
Narrator: The report claimed that they had interviewed hundreds of hospitals on telephone, including investigator Mr.M's call to more than 80 hospitals and investigator Mr.N's call to almost 40 hospitals. The face-to-face interview with the persons concerned in both Sujiatun and Guangxi proved that such telephone records were by no means reliable.
Narrator: Based on a lot of so-called false telephone interviews, Davids' report drew a ridiculous conclusion. that conclusion was related to the abrupt number increase of organ transplanting operation in China in 1999 with the Falun Gong event in the same year, which inferred the increase organ suppliers were those Falun Gong practitioners. The conclusion was logically inaccurate, and the numbers which were the basics of the conclusion were also counterfeiting, that came from Professor Shi Bingyi's words.
309 Hospital, also known as the Second Subsidiary Hospital of PLA General Hospital, possesses the organ transplanting center of PLA. Shi Bingyi is the director of the center, who is also the executive deputy director of Organ Transplantation Sub-branch of the Chinese Medical Association. He is an authoritative expert in the organ transplantation field in China.
Zimo: Recently we read a report worked out by two independent Canadian investigators and it quoted your words. It said that 90000 organ transplanting operations had been done in China till 2005. During the years from 2000 to 2005, a period that they called after the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners, 60000 had been done, which meant that there was a substantial increase in the number of operation cases. We are wondering if you said such words under any circumstances?
Shi Bingyi (Executive deputy director of Organ Transplantation Sub-branch of the Chinese Medical Association ): I didn't say that. You know why? Since I have never had such statistic data in my mind. I haven't done any particular survey, I haven`t these data concerning the number of operation cases in certain period of time, so it was impossible for me to say that.
Zimo: Though you haven't said the specific number of operation cases, but do you think these numbers from the report could be true?
Shi Bingyi: I don't think it`s true. I read from the report that they investigated in the name of patients' relatives, just calling hospitals and asking the person who answered the phone.
Zimo: After you read the report of independent investigation, have you ever clarified the statistic data quoted from you?
Shi Bingyi: Yes, I have. I am an armyman, so I have to protest through legal channel, with the help of the Medical Department of General Logistics Department PLA, I wrote a letter to the Ministry of State of Public Health to clarify that I have never said that words.
Zimo: Have you ever clarified the facts to any oversea media?
Shi Bingyi: Yes, I have. When I was interviewed by BBC on the phone I told them that I didn't say that.
Narrator: Shi Bingyi suggested that the numbers of organ transplantation operation had grown since the end of last century, but it had nothing to do with Falun Gong event.
Zimo: How should we understand that the numbers of organ transplantation operation in China grows so substantially?
Shi Bingyi: The increase is directly related to the fact that the medical science is developing and we now have more competent doctors, instead of having more organ supplier. In recent years, coming back from Pittsburgh and Britain, the Chinese visiting scholars set about organ transplantation work. So the organ transplantation techniques have developed a lot both in clinic application and scientific research, and it`s same for other countries in that period. Internationally speaking, up to now, it has been only half a century since the first case of operation of organ transplant in the world.
Zimo: How to solve the organ supplier problem if the amount of operation increases substantially?
Shi Bingyi: The lack of organ supplier cannot be settled. It will exist forever, not only in our country but also in other countries.
Zimo: The report also mentioned some other numbers. For example, it was said that some Chinese hospitals advertised in their official websites that the patients needed only two weeks for the organ supplier, whereas in other countries they normally need one year. How would you explain the difference?
Shi Bingyi: I can tell you that some patients of our hospital have been waiting for 3 to 4 years. The number of patients who have been waiting for more than 1 year is definitely more than 200.
Narrator: After Sujiatun hospital was indicted as Falun Gong concentration camp, organizations of different levels, such as the Ministry of Public Security and the Ministry of Public Health, separately carried out sudden checks to the hospitals, failing to discover anything abnormal and holding news conference to clarify the truth. Later, when the revised edition of Davids' report came out, the Ministry of Public Health investigated all the clues both secretly and openly again.
Zimo: Do we have any evidence to prove that such thing as transplanting living organ of Falun Gong practitioners had never happened in China?
Mao Qun'an: It reminds me of another rumor spreading abroad by Falun Gong organization when we prevented bird`s flu. We actually discovered a case of people infecting bird`s flu in Liaoning province, but they distorted it to scores of people dying of bird`s flu, even listing the specific name of each patient. Then we assisted the police to investigate, only finding out that the listed people either not existing at all or living healthily. Reading the report, we are thinking about if Falun Gong organization could offer a detailed name list as I mentioned above, we would immediately disclose their lie and bring the real facts to light. However, instead of giving any specific fact, the report only described such a large scale of living organ transplant cases. So we have no chance to disprove it directly. For example, if the report said something about certain person, we could find the person so that the person would speak out the truth to the public. But it's a pity that we failed to find out any such clue.
Zimo: In the process of regulating and administrating the organ transplantation, in your opinion, what improvements are urgently needed besides the medical technique itself in China?
Mao Qun'an: Organ transplantation is a new medical technique and it attracts much attention both in China and abroad. I have been interviewed many times on this topic. Some oversea Media and journalists kindly gave us opinions and suggestions on how to regulate the organ transplantation in our country. We think they were very objective. During the process of developing this technique, a lot of medical institutions and staff have participated in it. Since the technique is new and everybody is longing for contributing to its development, we need to regulate it. The two factors are not conflicted at all. But Falun Gong organization took advantage of this chance to fabricate such a ridiculous story. I believe when the oversea public get to know about the development of our society and medical science, the lie would collapse of itself.
Subtitle: On July 1, 2006, The Interim Regulations on Clinical Application Administration of Body Organ Transplant came into effect. On May 1, 2007, The Regulations on Body Organ Transplant came into effect.
Narrator: Reading the whole report we found that Davids' evidence could be reduced to three categories: first, the words of so-called testimony of witnesses, such as Anne and Shi Bingyi and the distorted telephone records; second, materials download from the Internet; third, illogical inferences containing certain vague words, such as "might", "should", "if" and so on. The example of the third category was that the two investigators inferred the living organ removal from Falun Gong practitioner should exit because human rights condition was not good in China, and they deduced that the hospitals were making profit by removing living organ from Falun Gong practitioners as the government reduced the fiscal appropriation for hospitals. But the on-the-spot investigations of Sujiatun hospital and Guangxi Nationaltiy Hospital, as well as the talk with Shi Bingyi all confirmed that not only the inference was illogical but also the premise of the inference was false. Therefore, no evidence of three categories was reliable or could bear close inspection.
Zimo: We have discovered from Internet that one of the investigators of the report, David Mattas who calls himself a human right lawyer, is Lai Changqing's counsel. The two Davids who have never been to mainland China were warmly welcome by Lv Xiulian in Taiwan. In addition, they exert their full strength to propagate the report in many international conferences and call for governments and athletes to resist 2008 Beijing Olympic Games. However, it's a pity that our on-the-spot investigation has found out that no fact is in accord with what the report said. Then why do the two Canadian Davids, one of them a well-paid lawyer and the other once a government officer, work out such a report full of mistakes? What is their motive?
(Phoenix TV, August 16, 2007)